Electric start issue

islandboy312 · 10-13-2009, 02:58 PM

2006 Roketa RSM200E. Starts and runs fine with the kicker, refuses to start with the electric starter. The electric starter spins the engine over as fast as it ever did, but the engine doesn't even try to start.

I have great spark -NGK plug - with both kick and electric. I checked the spark with the plug out and grounded against the head. (no compression).

This is an old problem. I just installed a brand new AGM battery, bench charged it before installing. 12.8v. Good, clean connections, etc. Hot or cold start makes no difference.

I don't see any mechanical compresion release coupled to the electric start that could be giving me grief, but is there some kind of electronic spark retard when the electric start is engaged?

I know I'm getting spark with the electric starter spinning the engine, but am I getting it at the right time? Could the CDI box be messing with me?
It doesn't seem likely.

I took apart the starter switch at the handlebar, and it looked fine. The starter relay seems to be working properly.

I don't mind kick starting the bike, but when I'm balanced on the edge of a cliff, I'd sure like to just push the button.

Thanks - Dan

FastDoc · 10-13-2009, 03:02 PM

How do you know you're getting spark on the started? Visual confirmation? Also are you sure the motor is turning, not just the starter motor?

I don't mean to ask stupid questions but this seems like an odd problem...

Cal25 · 10-13-2009, 03:31 PM

That does seem odd. I would guess that the motos is turning over if it is getting spark.

Perhaps one of the conections on the CDI is dirty or loose?

The only thought that comes to mind is some how there is some added resistance somewhere when the starter is cranking resulting in a weaker spark.

I bet someone has the answer though.

FastDoc · 10-13-2009, 04:02 PM

The only thought that comes to mind is some how there is some added resistance somewhere when the starter is cranking resulting in a weaker spark

Exactly. I've seen this. That's why I want to know what the spark looks like with the plug out and the motor cranking.

daddy469 · 10-13-2009, 04:02 PM

***Disclaimer***
I hate electricity and don't have a clue.
/***END Disclaimer***

Im inclined to go with cal and fastdoc on this, are you certain you are getting spark with the electric starter? And we are all assuming your checked for a loose / ungrounded anything . . .
If your electric starter works does anything else work while it is working?

Is yours the type of bike where the headlamp comes on only when the engine is running? If so, when you mash the START button, does your headlight flicker while the engine is turning over? If you roll it down a hill in 2nd or 3rd and pop the clutch will it start then, and if so, do the lights flicker while it is trying?
If it does not and your are certain your bike is supposed to do this, then your starter isn't likely engaging the engine to turn it over. From a horrible floating short experience I know (my Lifan anyway) will run all day long with no electrical system at all. If your are 100% sure your starter motor is turning over your engine, then it is a good bet you have something shorting out your neutral safely switch. Try holding in the clutch lever in N and then running the electric starter to see if it fires up. Try to do the same thing while if gear with the clutch lever in/out (be careful). The goal is to rule out any safety switch that could kill the bike. Typically in a situation like this if any of the conditions are true (not in N, and clutch not in, or in N witht he clutch out or whatever) the bike won't even turn over. The fact that yours does and doesn't start is confusing. It is almost like 2 systems are being activated, one to start the bike and one to kill it at the same time.

I hate electricity so much.

Daddy 8)

Cal25 · 10-13-2009, 04:51 PM

I completely forgot about some bikes haveing clutch switches or nuetral switches. Daddy469's thought might be the corect one.

If that is the case, could he remove the kill wire to the CDI and see if that lets it start on the starter?

daddy469 · 10-13-2009, 05:20 PM

I'm not certain, since these bikes are all similiar and have slightly different wiring diagrams. I have a slightly modified version of the Lifan 07 Diagram, but my bike is an 07 so go figure. My horn had a floating ground with the CDI+Frame. Everything worked but my horn would burp most of the time instead of honk. This seems very specific to the electric starter subsystem. The logic just doesn't seem right, which according to what I know (which isn't a lot as far as electronics go). Seems like EITHER the starter would START the engine, OR it wouldn't turn over period.

The old addage AIR+SPARK+FUEL=START doesn't seem to apply here. We have AIR, FUEL, but are ?Unsure? of SPARK. Rule out spark and you are almost guaranteed a floating short in one of the safety switches. Hard to rule stuff out sometimes tho. Look first where there is a ton of vibration, followed by heat, manual connection (cannonplug) and then factory connection (see vibration

). Worst case you have a real deal gremlin in your bike. All of them come from the factory with at least one, but as long as you didn't feed it after midnight you should be OK 8)
Daddy

PS My bike used to start in N without the clutch in no problem, but now I have to pull the clutch everytime regardless. I don't care, to me I call it a safety for the safety, but on your bike it could matter.

FastDoc · 10-13-2009, 05:21 PM

Probably not the case here. The clutch/neutral switches typically work by disrupting the starter, not the spark, so if that was the case the bike would not crank.

I'm betting this is a spark/ground, or more likely, a bendix issue.

daddy469 · 10-13-2009, 05:30 PM

One of the reasons this doesn't make any sense. Maybe the starter is shorting out the engine kill that wrecks the spark? :? On my Lifan the starter switch and engine run/stop is in the same housing. Could a screw loose inside that housing cause the engine to stop but the starter still crank?
Daddy 8)

FastDoc · 10-13-2009, 05:34 PM

Interesting thought and consistant with Chinese quality. Tofu is not a structural material.

islandboy312 · 10-13-2009, 08:33 PM

Thanks for the thoughts and good questions, which I'll try to answer.

I know I'm getting spark when the electric starter cranks the engine because I pulled the spark plug out of the head, reconnected the spark plug lead, grounded the tip of the spark plug to the head, and operated the starter.

The spark is a fat, happy, blue one, both kick and electric.

I know the engine is turning over with the electric starter because I put my finger over the spark plug hole to confirm compression. I looked in the spark plug hole and watched the intake valve opening and closing.

As a believer in good grounding, I've added 2 additional #10 ground wires to the bike, one from the battery to the frame, and one from the engine case to the frame.

The headlight will stay on all the time, engine running or not. I keep it off unless it's night time. With the headlight turned on, and the electric starter cranking, the headlight dims a bit each time the starter hits compression, but the light does not go out. The horn works with the starter cranking.

I looked at both safety circuits. The neutral switch interrupts current to the starter, and it's working properly. The clutch switch, also working properly, bypasses the neutral switch. I've done my testing in neutral.

The kill switch interrupts current to the ignition. The electric starter will work with the kill switch on or off. I took the kill switch/starter button apart. The kill switch is working properly, showing continuity and no continuity as the switch is flipped on and off.

Using the spark plug out cranking test, the kill switch showed proper operation in both positions. Spark when should, no spark when should not.

Please keep the ideas coming. The bike runs fine if kick-started. My next test is (1) to try the CDI box off a friend's identical bike and (2) to try leaving a spark plug in the cylinder to have normal cranking speed, and to swipe the friend's spark plug, connect to the lead to it, and check for visible spark outside the cylinder.

Thank you - Dan

lego1970 · 10-14-2009, 01:14 PM

I've read your post, and while I don't know the answer, I wonder if there is a auto decompression, however I doubt it on a 200cc engine. To check you would have to put a compression gauge to it while turning it over with the electric starter. Not that I'm real great at this stuff, but this post baffles me. I can't see how it wouldn't fire if your getting a good spark. Good luck and can't wait to hear what the answer is.

islandboy312 · 10-14-2009, 02:09 PM

I've ruled out any mechanical decompression stuff. None of the exploded cylinder head drawings show any such.

I've looked at the spark pickup area on the crank, and didn't find any adjustment for the timing. According to da book, the CDI box can do up to 7 degrees of spark advance as a function of engine RPM and spark duration.

I really don't think the CDI box is supposed to do a spark retard on electric start, but it just might. I'll have to study the wiring diagram when I find it. That would have a similar effect as a mechanical compression release.

On the 2 Roketas I'm familiar with, each one sometimes (less than 20% of the time) has starter stall, where the starter can't make enough engine momentum to get past the first compression hit. Release the button, hit it again, and the engine spins through fine.

I'll try a borrowed CDI box today and report back.

daddy469 · 10-15-2009, 09:22 AM

I've spoken with several folks way smarter than I. They said if it were a twin that the timing would be off 180, whatever that means. Since your bike is a single - good luck with that and keep us posted!

Daddy 8)

islandboy312 · 10-15-2009, 04:57 PM

I think timing is not too far off, since the bike starts and runs with the kicks starter.

I tried a different CDI box taken off an identical Roketa that starts fine with the electric start. It made no difference on my bike. Still no electric start.

I'm starting to suspect compression. Maybe my frustrated kick spins the engine faster than the electric starter. I'll do a compression test and report back.

10-13-2009, 03:02 PM	#2
FastDoc Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Southeastern Washington desert Posts: 14,761	How do you know you're getting spark on the started? Visual confirmation? Also are you sure the motor is turning, not just the starter motor? I don't mean to ask stupid questions but this seems like an odd problem... __________________ Happy to serve.
	0

10-13-2009, 04:02 PM	#4
FastDoc Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Southeastern Washington desert Posts: 14,761	The only thought that comes to mind is some how there is some added resistance somewhere when the starter is cranking resulting in a weaker spark Exactly. I've seen this. That's why I want to know what the spark looks like with the plug out and the motor cranking. __________________ Happy to serve.
	0

10-13-2009, 05:21 PM	#8
FastDoc Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Southeastern Washington desert Posts: 14,761	Probably not the case here. The clutch/neutral switches typically work by disrupting the starter, not the spark, so if that was the case the bike would not crank. I'm betting this is a spark/ground, or more likely, a bendix issue. __________________ Happy to serve.
	0

10-13-2009, 08:33 PM	#11
islandboy312 Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 13	thanks Thanks for the thoughts and good questions, which I'll try to answer. I know I'm getting spark when the electric starter cranks the engine because I pulled the spark plug out of the head, reconnected the spark plug lead, grounded the tip of the spark plug to the head, and operated the starter. The spark is a fat, happy, blue one, both kick and electric. I know the engine is turning over with the electric starter because I put my finger over the spark plug hole to confirm compression. I looked in the spark plug hole and watched the intake valve opening and closing. As a believer in good grounding, I've added 2 additional #10 ground wires to the bike, one from the battery to the frame, and one from the engine case to the frame. The headlight will stay on all the time, engine running or not. I keep it off unless it's night time. With the headlight turned on, and the electric starter cranking, the headlight dims a bit each time the starter hits compression, but the light does not go out. The horn works with the starter cranking. I looked at both safety circuits. The neutral switch interrupts current to the starter, and it's working properly. The clutch switch, also working properly, bypasses the neutral switch. I've done my testing in neutral. The kill switch interrupts current to the ignition. The electric starter will work with the kill switch on or off. I took the kill switch/starter button apart. The kill switch is working properly, showing continuity and no continuity as the switch is flipped on and off. Using the spark plug out cranking test, the kill switch showed proper operation in both positions. Spark when should, no spark when should not. Please keep the ideas coming. The bike runs fine if kick-started. My next test is (1) to try the CDI box off a friend's identical bike and (2) to try leaving a spark plug in the cylinder to have normal cranking speed, and to swipe the friend's spark plug, connect to the lead to it, and check for visible spark outside the cylinder. Thank you - Dan
	0

10-15-2009, 04:57 PM	#15
islandboy312 Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 13	update I think timing is not too far off, since the bike starts and runs with the kicks starter. I tried a different CDI box taken off an identical Roketa that starts fine with the electric start. It made no difference on my bike. Still no electric start. I'm starting to suspect compression. Maybe my frustrated kick spins the engine faster than the electric starter. I'll do a compression test and report back.
	0

10-13-2009, 02:58 PM	#1
islandboy312 Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 13	Electric start issue 2006 Roketa RSM200E. Starts and runs fine with the kicker, refuses to start with the electric starter. The electric starter spins the engine over as fast as it ever did, but the engine doesn't even try to start. I have great spark -NGK plug - with both kick and electric. I checked the spark with the plug out and grounded against the head. (no compression). This is an old problem. I just installed a brand new AGM battery, bench charged it before installing. 12.8v. Good, clean connections, etc. Hot or cold start makes no difference. I don't see any mechanical compresion release coupled to the electric start that could be giving me grief, but is there some kind of electronic spark retard when the electric start is engaged? I know I'm getting spark with the electric starter spinning the engine, but am I getting it at the right time? Could the CDI box be messing with me? It doesn't seem likely. I took apart the starter switch at the handlebar, and it looked fine. The starter relay seems to be working properly. I don't mind kick starting the bike, but when I'm balanced on the edge of a cliff, I'd sure like to just push the button. Thanks - Dan
	0

10-13-2009, 03:31 PM	#3
Cal25 Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Terrell and Grapevine Tx. Posts: 1,585	That does seem odd. I would guess that the motos is turning over if it is getting spark. Perhaps one of the conections on the CDI is dirty or loose? The only thought that comes to mind is some how there is some added resistance somewhere when the starter is cranking resulting in a weaker spark. I bet someone has the answer though.
	0

10-13-2009, 04:02 PM	#5
daddy469 Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 293	*Disclaimer* I hate electricity and don't have a clue. /*END Disclaimer* Im inclined to go with cal and fastdoc on this, are you certain you are getting spark with the electric starter? And we are all assuming your checked for a loose / ungrounded anything . . . If your electric starter works does anything else work while it is working? Is yours the type of bike where the headlamp comes on only when the engine is running? If so, when you mash the START button, does your headlight flicker while the engine is turning over? If you roll it down a hill in 2nd or 3rd and pop the clutch will it start then, and if so, do the lights flicker while it is trying? If it does not and your are certain your bike is supposed to do this, then your starter isn't likely engaging the engine to turn it over. From a horrible floating short experience I know (my Lifan anyway) will run all day long with no electrical system at all. If your are 100% sure your starter motor is turning over your engine, then it is a good bet you have something shorting out your neutral safely switch. Try holding in the clutch lever in N and then running the electric starter to see if it fires up. Try to do the same thing while if gear with the clutch lever in/out (be careful). The goal is to rule out any safety switch that could kill the bike. Typically in a situation like this if any of the conditions are true (not in N, and clutch not in, or in N witht he clutch out or whatever) the bike won't even turn over. The fact that yours does and doesn't start is confusing. It is almost like 2 systems are being activated, one to start the bike and one to kill it at the same time. I hate electricity so much. Daddy 8)
	0

10-13-2009, 04:51 PM	#6
Cal25 Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Terrell and Grapevine Tx. Posts: 1,585	I completely forgot about some bikes haveing clutch switches or nuetral switches. Daddy469's thought might be the corect one. If that is the case, could he remove the kill wire to the CDI and see if that lets it start on the starter?
	0

10-13-2009, 05:20 PM	#7
daddy469 Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 293	I'm not certain, since these bikes are all similiar and have slightly different wiring diagrams. I have a slightly modified version of the Lifan 07 Diagram, but my bike is an 07 so go figure. My horn had a floating ground with the CDI+Frame. Everything worked but my horn would burp most of the time instead of honk. This seems very specific to the electric starter subsystem. The logic just doesn't seem right, which according to what I know (which isn't a lot as far as electronics go). Seems like EITHER the starter would START the engine, OR it wouldn't turn over period. The old addage AIR+SPARK+FUEL=START doesn't seem to apply here. We have AIR, FUEL, but are ?Unsure? of SPARK. Rule out spark and you are almost guaranteed a floating short in one of the safety switches. Hard to rule stuff out sometimes tho. Look first where there is a ton of vibration, followed by heat, manual connection (cannonplug) and then factory connection (see vibration ). Worst case you have a real deal gremlin in your bike. All of them come from the factory with at least one, but as long as you didn't feed it after midnight you should be OK 8) Daddy PS My bike used to start in N without the clutch in no problem, but now I have to pull the clutch everytime regardless. I don't care, to me I call it a safety for the safety, but on your bike it could matter.
	0

10-13-2009, 05:30 PM	#9
daddy469 Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 293	One of the reasons this doesn't make any sense. Maybe the starter is shorting out the engine kill that wrecks the spark? :? On my Lifan the starter switch and engine run/stop is in the same housing. Could a screw loose inside that housing cause the engine to stop but the starter still crank? Daddy 8)
	0

10-13-2009, 05:34 PM	#10
FastDoc Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Southeastern Washington desert Posts: 14,761	Interesting thought and consistant with Chinese quality. Tofu is not a structural material. __________________ Happy to serve.
	0

10-14-2009, 01:14 PM	#12
lego1970 Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Blue Springs, Missouri. United States Posts: 505	I've read your post, and while I don't know the answer, I wonder if there is a auto decompression, however I doubt it on a 200cc engine. To check you would have to put a compression gauge to it while turning it over with the electric starter. Not that I'm real great at this stuff, but this post baffles me. I can't see how it wouldn't fire if your getting a good spark. Good luck and can't wait to hear what the answer is.
	0

10-14-2009, 02:09 PM	#13
islandboy312 Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 13	I've ruled out any mechanical decompression stuff. None of the exploded cylinder head drawings show any such. I've looked at the spark pickup area on the crank, and didn't find any adjustment for the timing. According to da book, the CDI box can do up to 7 degrees of spark advance as a function of engine RPM and spark duration. I really don't think the CDI box is supposed to do a spark retard on electric start, but it just might. I'll have to study the wiring diagram when I find it. That would have a similar effect as a mechanical compression release. On the 2 Roketas I'm familiar with, each one sometimes (less than 20% of the time) has starter stall, where the starter can't make enough engine momentum to get past the first compression hit. Release the button, hit it again, and the engine spins through fine. I'll try a borrowed CDI box today and report back.
	0

10-15-2009, 09:22 AM	#14
daddy469 Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 293	I've spoken with several folks way smarter than I. They said if it were a twin that the timing would be off 180, whatever that means. Since your bike is a single - good luck with that and keep us posted! Daddy 8)
	0