Hawk/Magician/CG250 6 speed

[NzBrakelathes]

Found a 6 speed option for the CG motors
The 4 valve head or dual port heads are only for 125-200 motors
Stator options seem to be as follows

11 pole unsure of specs
12 pole 160 watts small inner flywheel diameter
12 pole 200/250 Watts larger inner flywheel diameter
18 pole 300/350 watts largest inner flywheel diameter

Wider stator adds more watts
Can't yet find anyone to mod a clutch cover to add in oil cooler lines

Similar stator options for the OHC CB engines.

CB Engines with 6 speed MUST loose the kick start & gear as that is used as 6th or a gear. Totally new gear box clutch and many other parts.
There is an option for oil cooler clutch cover but no hole for kick starter yet in theory there is a Zongshen with a hole.
There is an optional 223cc kit for CB125-200 by the looks (crank and loads of bits)

[ChipToothy]

Originally Posted by NzBrakelathes

Found a 6 speed option for the CG motors
The 4 valve head or dual port heads are only for 125-200 motors
Stator options seem to be as follows

11 pole unsure of specs
12 pole 160 watts small inner flywheel diameter
12 pole 200/250 Watts larger inner flywheel diameter
18 pole 300/350 watts largest inner flywheel diameter

Wider stator adds more watts
Can't yet find anyone to mod a clutch cover to add in oil cooler lines

Similar stator options for the OHC CB engines.

CB Engines with 6 speed MUST loose the kick start & gear as that is used as 6th or a gear. Totally new gear box clutch and many other parts.
There is an option for oil cooler clutch cover but no hole for kick starter yet in theory there is a Zongshen with a hole.
There is an optional 223cc kit for CB125-200 by the looks (crank and loads of bits)

Why not just stick a bigger motor in there and be done with it. Speed limits aren't going down anytime soon.

[NzBrakelathes]

Originally Posted by ChipToothy

Why not just stick a bigger motor in there and be done with it. Speed limits aren't going down anytime soon.

AJP runs a 125 in Europe and an upgrade is cheaper easier then a motor with shipping
Too many options to list and ways to tackle restrictions etc not so easy to say or do

[ChipToothy]

Originally Posted by NzBrakelathes

AJP runs a 125 in Europe and an upgrade is cheaper easier then a motor with shipping
Too many options to list and ways to tackle restrictions etc not so easy to say or do

I meant at the manufacturing level. The people designing and making a 6spd kit, it seems like a waste on a 10-15 HP motor that can't hardly pull it's own weight outside of 4th gear. Would a simple change in gearing not provide the same effects?

[Megadan]

If you could provide more details on the 6spd setup. As I said, I am definitely interested in it. The big IF for me is the gear ratios. Mainly, if the 6th gear is an extra overdrive that came in around 0.8:1.

Would the CG engine also need to lose the kick start, or would it retain that feature?

Would this kit come with both shafts, gears, forks, selector and drum?

Originally Posted by ChipToothy

it seems like a waste on a 10-15 HP motor that can't hardly pull it's own weight outside of 4th gear. Would a simple change in gearing not provide the same effects?

Quite the contrary, more gears on a less powerful engine can provide greater versatility. If the 6th gear, for example, offered a taller overdrive than 5th, you could run a larger rear sprocket and have much better off road gearing in the lower gears while also retaining the ability to run on the highway at 60mph.

A perfect example of this would be on an otherwise stock Hawk with it's 15/50 sprockets and .955 5th gear. That 15/50 is a GREAT combination for off roading with lots of torque. Where it lacks is the fact that at 60mph, you are screaming along at 8000RPM.

Now imagine we can add a 6th gear with a .855 ratio (just for shits and grins). Now at 60mph the engine is at a more reasonable 7100rpm.

Another example. If you swapped a front sprocket to a 17 tooth, or had a stock TT250, With that added 6th gear it would get the RPM's down to the same 6300rpm at 60mph that a 17/45 setup would give you in 5th gear. while having the benefits of a 50 tooth sprocket in the rear in the first 5 gears. To me, that is a real best of both worlds.

[OneLeggedRider]

Well why did they put a 6 speed gearbox on 80cc 2-strokes? So they could get the most out of every gear!

[NzBrakelathes]

No direct info on ratios but it’s a match up if differnt parts from other motors
Assume close to the Zongshen or loncin 6 speed
Looks to retain kick starter as you see 7 gears the one next to clutch center is kick starter
And yes you’re right you can drop the whole gear box ratio either via sprockets or clutch basket and drive gear giving you a much lower 1st
Pattern of shift is 12N3456 strange but true

[Megadan]

Originally Posted by NzBrakelathes

No direct info on ratios but it’s a match up if differnt parts from other motors
Assume close to the Zongshen or loncin 6 speed
Looks to retain kick starter as you see 7 gears the one next to clutch center is kick starter
And yes you’re right you can drop the whole gear box ratio either via sprockets or clutch basket and drive gear giving you a much lower 1st
Pattern of shift is 12N3456 strange but true

A quick tooth count between each mated pair could easily give the ratios.

I am not a fan of the 1, 2, N thing though. There is a reason Neutral is either at the very bottom (N, 1, 2, etc) or between first and second. If I need to go into neutral at a light, or coming to a stop, I have to try and make two shifts while at a stop. This often means rolling the bike or slipping the clutch a tiny bit in order to get beyond that second shift. This is also true if I decided to stop in neutral, or find myself in neutral at a very slow speed.

[NzBrakelathes]

Well then the 6 speed isn’t for you
Just giving the truth best I can from chinese whispers

[Megadan]

Originally Posted by NzBrakelathes

Well then the 6 speed isn’t for you
Just giving the truth best I can from chinese whispers

I think you will find the 6spd won't be for most people if neutral is positioned between 2nd and 3rd gear. Just an educated guess.

[NzBrakelathes]

Originally Posted by Megadan

I think you will find the 6spd won't be for most people if neutral is positioned between 2nd and 3rd gear. Just an educated guess.

Is such a statement needed?

[Megadan]

Originally Posted by NzBrakelathes

Is such a statement needed?

Yes, it is. I am not worried about if you like it or not, it is very valid and relevant point.

"Here, have a transmission with a goofy shift pattern that requires 2 gear shifts to get to neutral from first, or first to neutral."

Nobody pulls up to a stop in second gear. Not many people want to try and take off in second gear with a sub 20hp 300lb motorcycle either. With that shift pattern, both are guaranteed to happen. Stalling at a light, or starting in the wrong gear can create an unsafe condition for a rider. Let alone the annoying inconvenience.

There is a reason manufacturers don't make their transmissions neutral more than 1 shift away from first gear.

Want to know what spurred that comment? Your condescending and nonsensical statement seen below.

Originally Posted by NzBrakelathes

Well then the 6 speed isn’t for you

A 6spd is for me. Especially considering I have been the most vocal about it to this point, and you yourself contacted me about it. What kind of incredibly stupid comment is that, given the context?

If you don't like honest feedback with genuine concerns, then why even bother asking anybody? Just offer your wares as they are and let people decide for themselves if they want it. Your whole reason for asking was to make sure you didn't invest in this and end up eating a cost. I am suggesting how you can avoid that situation and you suddenly get smarmy and defensive. I am a nice guy, but don't expect me to pull my punches either.

[JerryHawk250]

The 12N3456 shift pattern is strange and wouldn't be my preference.
But.... Just thinking out loud here. ( this could be dangerous ) Now if the 6th gear is an extra overdrive gear then this could work. The sprockets could be geared for road use and then 1st could be used as an underdrive gear for off road and making 2nd your 1st gear for the street.

[Azhule]

I'm never in "Neutral" when standing still at a "traffic light of death"... I usually only use that pesky "Neutral" feature to start and idle the bike half a second or so as I do my final checks before a ride... or I will toss it in Neutral to hop off for a quick "dual sport in its natural habitat pic"...

Always have it in gear and ready to take off at any moments notice... I've seen too many bikers mowed down at red lights and stop signs by jackhole cagers, they like to behind the wheel

[Megadan]

Originally Posted by Azhule

I'm never in "Neutral" when standing still at a "traffic light of death"... I usually only use that pesky "Neutral" feature to start and idle the bike half a second or so as I do my final checks before a ride... or I will toss it in Neutral to hop off for a quick "dual sport in its natural habitat pic"...

Always have it in gear and ready to take off at any moments notice... I've seen too many bikers mowed down at red lights and stop signs by jackhole cagers, they like to behind the wheel

Yep always have it in gear. I agree. So when you forget to do your extra shift down and you are still in second and you need to take off to avoid becoming a road smear... same result.