200cc Gio Beast Winter=Death???? - Page 2

TurboT · 01-06-2010, 10:02 PM

I could not get either of my little ones to run up country in October when it was -14 overnight. They sat outside all night and no way would they run for the most part. I did manage to get them started late afternoon third day, when they sat in the sun all day and the temp got up to -2.

Heat on the motor as Kato says and a fully charged room temp battery probably helps.. but is it worth it for the 10-15 minute ride in snow you'll just get stuck in? Up to the user I guess!

MICRider · 01-06-2010, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TurboT

I could not get either of my little ones to run up country in October when it was -14 overnight. They sat outside all night and no way would they run for the most part. I did manage to get them started late afternoon third day, when they sat in the sun all day and the temp got up to -2.

Heat on the motor as Kato says and a fully charged room temp battery probably helps.. but is it worth it for the 10-15 minute ride in snow you'll just get stuck in? Up to the user I guess!

Too true! Mine was in a garage (unheated) so that might have helped a bit. She cranked pretty slow even with the battery being warm and fresh, but it has pretty heavy oil in it for subzero temps! Was fun to blast around the alley's and such, but venturing into unpacked snow resulted in tons of spinning with little forward propulsion. Plus, it was dang cold! I used to like riding my trike and dirt bikes in the snow when I was younger... Think I have softened in my old age. Lol!

suprf1y · 01-06-2010, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waynev

Yeah, i'm having some problems in the cold too, i have the mikuni carb, uni filter and monster exhaust on my beast, i have brought the main jet up 4 sizes to a 110 and my new pilot jet will be picked up today, i will let you know if it starts better after the pilot change, i got a 22.5 and a 25 pilot.
.

My sons has the same carb, and open exhaust, and his fires almost right away, as long as the battery is good.
I found the stock jetting to be pretty good, out of the box.

VinceDrake · 01-06-2010, 10:42 PM

To add a little more fuel to the fire: If you have a look at the intake manifold on the Beast, it is extremely long, and Fuel/Air mix actually has to run uphill to get to the engine. Also, it's some wierd steel/aluminummy type of stuff that takes a lot of heat to get warm.

I found on my old beast, if you wanted it to start at anything below -15C, it was best to warm up the intake with a heat lamp, heat gun, blow torch (Not recommended) whatever.

What I suspect happens, in addition to being jetted very lean from the factory, I think the icy-cold intake is so long that on start up, any vaporized fuel from the carb condenses back out, and lays on the bottom of the intake.

Once the engine has been running for a while it seems there is enough heat coming from the head to keep things relatively warm and operable.

At one point I was experimenting with building a heat stove, just an old carbureted car to keep the carby warm, but I looked stupid, and didn't work very well overall...

Food for thought.

--Vince

Weldangrind · 01-07-2010, 02:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VinceDrake

What I suspect happens, in addition to being jetted very lean from the factory, I think the icy-cold intake is so long that on start up, any vaporized fuel from the carb condenses back out, and lays on the bottom of the intake.

That's a thought provoking theory Vince. It might be why PCD (Pete) had fuel running out of the air filter on a cold start.

I know I've said this elsewhere, but Anthony's use of a GY6 carb with a straight intake (more or less) is becoming more attractive. It occurred to me that the stock Beast intake is shaped like it is merely to accomodate the throttle cable. Since the GY6 carb uses a rotary style, the cable isn't an issue. You could mount the carb as high as the seat allows and benefit from a straight shot into the head.

Hmmm...

suprf1y · 01-07-2010, 08:31 AM

Quote:

in addition to being jetted very lean from the factory

I don't know where you guys get this idea from, but they're not (neither of mine were) jetted lean from the factory.
It's commonly accepted that most bikes/quads, etc. are jetted lean from the factory, for emissions, but the reality is, most bikes aren't, and lean is not only bad for the bike, but bad for emissions. Most stuff needs to run rich to comply with emissions.

waynev · 01-07-2010, 08:47 AM

My beast was rich with the stock setup.

As for my jetting now i'm right where it needs to be with the 110 main and 25 pilot, but i have no warm weather jet info as most of my mods were finished once it got cold out. All i know is on my snowmobile i always jet in the safe zone, usually a little rich to compensate for the very cold days but as per the main jet chart it is up/down 1 jet size per 7C.

So i'm guessing in the summer i will be dropping the pilot to a 22.5 and the main to a 102.5 or 105.

VinceDrake · 01-07-2010, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by suprf1y

Quote:

in addition to being jetted very lean from the factory

I don't know where you guys get this idea from, but they're not (neither of mine were) jetted lean from the factory.
It's commonly accepted that most bikes/quads, etc. are jetted lean from the factory, for emissions, but the reality is, most bikes aren't, and lean is not only bad for the bike, but bad for emissions. Most stuff needs to run rich to comply with emissions.

Well, specifically, I get that idea from the plug turning nasty, chalky white on my old one in stock form, and the exhaust burning it's paint off the header pipe just off the head.

Yes, it's bad for the engine, bad for the environment, but that's the way it was.

--Vince

waynev · 01-07-2010, 04:09 PM

Well all i can say is even with my new motomaster 12AH battery my beast was an absolute nightmare to start in the cold, then i rejetted, it's now been 21hrs since last started, went outside, full choke and it fired right up, so it's pretty obvious in the colder temperatures you need more fuel and by putting the larger main and pilot jets in it now starts as good as it did in the summer.

There's no way you can be tuned for the summer and think that the same jetting will work in the winter, check any mikuni jetting chart, when it gets colder you need more fuel, there's no way around it unless you put EFI on it.

Here's a link to a nice article on how to tune mikuni carbs http://www.iwt.com.au/mikunicarb.htm

One more thing, when the piston goes down on our engines it sucks that fuel/air mixture in cold or hot, while a straight tube might be a bit better, but under vacuum it's going to pull it in the same and a colder air/fuel mixture will also make more power so that cold intake tube theory doesn't fly with me, ever wonder why drag racers use an ice box to cool the fuel, cold fuel makes more power. And heating the intake tube only confuses the engine into thinking the air is warmer than it actually is.

Reveeen · 01-07-2010, 04:55 PM

waynev:

You are "mixing and matching" two different *thoughts*.

Cold fuel is "denser" than hot fuel in it's liquid state, that is why fuel is cooled.

In a carb, the carb is designed to turn a liquid (fuel) into a vapor, to achieve this it requires energy (heat), the heat comes from the surrounding air (or the air the carb is attempting to vaporize the fuel into), if this incoming air is not warm enough, two things can happen:
1) the fuel does not vaporize (remaining a liquid pooled in the intake tract)
or
2) if the air falls below the "dew point" of the air charge (determined by the amount of moisture in the air) it makes ice.

This is why, in cooler/colder climates you saw carb equipped vehicles with air stoves, to pre-heat the incoming air charge, to prevent either/both of the above happening.

*Think* BBQ tank. Propane stored as a liquid, turned to a vapor to be mixed with air for burning. Ever seen an ice ring around a BBQ tank in the summer?

waynev · 01-07-2010, 05:06 PM

Good points reveeen, i guess all i'm really trying to say is if the OP is having problems starting his beast in the winter then the simple cure is to jet his carb for the colder temperatures.

I've ran my snowmobile down to -30C before and that same engine also did duty on my microsprint in 30C weather, and the engine ran great in both temperature extremes when properly jetted, that's all i'm trying to say, it's winter, it's cold out, if your having problems JET UP.

Every mikuni tuning chart can't be wrong, can it?

TurboT · 01-07-2010, 05:49 PM

It's amazing how one question can get everyone's juices flowing into a great theory discussion!

I know my little quads were quite rich in stock form.(which they still are) As for the Beast. It's hard to say. It wasn't running right when I bought it due to the vacuum leak and the amount of work W&G did on it makes it impossible to know if it was rich or lean in stock form. We also don't get really cold here so I expect my little quads would fire right up now as they did when it was +25 outside. Maybe need a bit more fiddling but it's only +5 here now.

katoranger · 01-07-2010, 06:47 PM

I need this link in order to follow this thread.
:oops:
http://www.metric-conversions.org/te...fahrenheit.htm

TurboT · 01-07-2010, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katoranger

I need this link in order to follow this thread.
:oops:
http://www.metric-conversions.org/te...fahrenheit.htm

Haha.. us damn Canucks are taking over.

VinceDrake · 01-07-2010, 09:21 PM

I agree whole heartedly that Cold=More fuel/bigger jet. It's fact. Air is much more dense with the cold, therefore you need more fuel, in order to maintain the correct mixture.

***BUT***

Liquid fuel doesn't light worth a darned thing. Only vaporized fuel will light consistently and effectively.

To agree with The honourable Mr. Reveen, the most effective way to vaporize fuel is with heat. (Or inject it--force it through an orifice so it gets broken up already)

To make a short story longer, if you suck enough fuel through the carb/choke some of it is bound to vaporize, and it will start-- but a little bit of heat would do the same job.

This morning it was -37C (-37F) here.

--Vince

01-06-2010, 10:42 PM	#19
VinceDrake Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Southern Saskatchewan Posts: 491	To add a little more fuel to the fire: If you have a look at the intake manifold on the Beast, it is extremely long, and Fuel/Air mix actually has to run uphill to get to the engine. Also, it's some wierd steel/aluminummy type of stuff that takes a lot of heat to get warm. I found on my old beast, if you wanted it to start at anything below -15C, it was best to warm up the intake with a heat lamp, heat gun, blow torch (Not recommended) whatever. What I suspect happens, in addition to being jetted very lean from the factory, I think the icy-cold intake is so long that on start up, any vaporized fuel from the carb condenses back out, and lays on the bottom of the intake. Once the engine has been running for a while it seems there is enough heat coming from the head to keep things relatively warm and operable. At one point I was experimenting with building a heat stove, just an old carbureted car to keep the carby warm, but I looked stupid, and didn't work very well overall... Food for thought. --Vince __________________ "Sometimes it is better to say nothing, and let people think you're an idiot, than to open your mouth and prove it."
	0

01-07-2010, 06:47 PM	#28
katoranger Join Date: May 2007 Location: Altamont, Kansas Posts: 15,103	I need this link in order to follow this thread. :oops: http://www.metric-conversions.org/te...fahrenheit.htm __________________ You meet the nicest people on a Honda Clone.
	0

01-07-2010, 09:21 PM	#30
VinceDrake Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Southern Saskatchewan Posts: 491	I agree whole heartedly that Cold=More fuel/bigger jet. It's fact. Air is much more dense with the cold, therefore you need more fuel, in order to maintain the correct mixture. *BUT* Liquid fuel doesn't light worth a darned thing. Only vaporized fuel will light consistently and effectively. To agree with The honourable Mr. Reveen, the most effective way to vaporize fuel is with heat. (Or inject it--force it through an orifice so it gets broken up already) To make a short story longer, if you suck enough fuel through the carb/choke some of it is bound to vaporize, and it will start-- but a little bit of heat would do the same job. This morning it was -37C (-37F) here. --Vince __________________ "Sometimes it is better to say nothing, and let people think you're an idiot, than to open your mouth and prove it."
	0

01-06-2010, 10:02 PM	#16
TurboT Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Surrey, B.C., Canada Posts: 2,185	I could not get either of my little ones to run up country in October when it was -14 overnight. They sat outside all night and no way would they run for the most part. I did manage to get them started late afternoon third day, when they sat in the sun all day and the temp got up to -2. Heat on the motor as Kato says and a fully charged room temp battery probably helps.. but is it worth it for the 10-15 minute ride in snow you'll just get stuck in? Up to the user I guess!
	0

01-07-2010, 08:47 AM	#22
waynev Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: London, Ontario Posts: 1,097	My beast was rich with the stock setup. As for my jetting now i'm right where it needs to be with the 110 main and 25 pilot, but i have no warm weather jet info as most of my mods were finished once it got cold out. All i know is on my snowmobile i always jet in the safe zone, usually a little rich to compensate for the very cold days but as per the main jet chart it is up/down 1 jet size per 7C. So i'm guessing in the summer i will be dropping the pilot to a 22.5 and the main to a 102.5 or 105.
	0

01-07-2010, 04:09 PM	#24
waynev Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: London, Ontario Posts: 1,097	Well all i can say is even with my new motomaster 12AH battery my beast was an absolute nightmare to start in the cold, then i rejetted, it's now been 21hrs since last started, went outside, full choke and it fired right up, so it's pretty obvious in the colder temperatures you need more fuel and by putting the larger main and pilot jets in it now starts as good as it did in the summer. There's no way you can be tuned for the summer and think that the same jetting will work in the winter, check any mikuni jetting chart, when it gets colder you need more fuel, there's no way around it unless you put EFI on it. Here's a link to a nice article on how to tune mikuni carbs http://www.iwt.com.au/mikunicarb.htm One more thing, when the piston goes down on our engines it sucks that fuel/air mixture in cold or hot, while a straight tube might be a bit better, but under vacuum it's going to pull it in the same and a colder air/fuel mixture will also make more power so that cold intake tube theory doesn't fly with me, ever wonder why drag racers use an ice box to cool the fuel, cold fuel makes more power. And heating the intake tube only confuses the engine into thinking the air is warmer than it actually is.
	0

01-07-2010, 04:55 PM	#25
Reveeen Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: orbital platform Posts: 741	waynev: You are "mixing and matching" two different thoughts. Cold fuel is "denser" than hot fuel in it's liquid state, that is why fuel is cooled. In a carb, the carb is designed to turn a liquid (fuel) into a vapor, to achieve this it requires energy (heat), the heat comes from the surrounding air (or the air the carb is attempting to vaporize the fuel into), if this incoming air is not warm enough, two things can happen: 1) the fuel does not vaporize (remaining a liquid pooled in the intake tract) or 2) if the air falls below the "dew point" of the air charge (determined by the amount of moisture in the air) it makes ice. This is why, in cooler/colder climates you saw carb equipped vehicles with air stoves, to pre-heat the incoming air charge, to prevent either/both of the above happening. Think BBQ tank. Propane stored as a liquid, turned to a vapor to be mixed with air for burning. Ever seen an ice ring around a BBQ tank in the summer?
	0

01-07-2010, 05:06 PM	#26
waynev Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: London, Ontario Posts: 1,097	Good points reveeen, i guess all i'm really trying to say is if the OP is having problems starting his beast in the winter then the simple cure is to jet his carb for the colder temperatures. I've ran my snowmobile down to -30C before and that same engine also did duty on my microsprint in 30C weather, and the engine ran great in both temperature extremes when properly jetted, that's all i'm trying to say, it's winter, it's cold out, if your having problems JET UP. Every mikuni tuning chart can't be wrong, can it?
	0

01-07-2010, 05:49 PM	#27
TurboT Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Surrey, B.C., Canada Posts: 2,185	It's amazing how one question can get everyone's juices flowing into a great theory discussion! I know my little quads were quite rich in stock form.(which they still are) As for the Beast. It's hard to say. It wasn't running right when I bought it due to the vacuum leak and the amount of work W&G did on it makes it impossible to know if it was rich or lean in stock form. We also don't get really cold here so I expect my little quads would fire right up now as they did when it was +25 outside. Maybe need a bit more fiddling but it's only +5 here now.
	0