china vs. Jap. I now have both

elkhunter338 · 03-28-2019, 11:40 PM

2018 CSC (100 miles) runs great; just got used 2006 DR 200 Suz., ran good on the test ride, trailered it home and now will not idle, carb. needs cleaned.

Suzuki is a lighter, little smaller bike, work perfect for the wife. 20hp OH cam motor. Custom soft seat, its comfortable.
Sticker shock on parts, I priced some carb. parts, Wow roughly 5x the cost. Can't find rubber grommets for the side panels.
Bike has 4,500 miles, clean bike. $1,800.

Quality wise some stuff on the Suz. is better, some not. For example the front sprocket cover is plastic vs. CSC metal. I like the metal one. Other items are for sure better quality. It's a nice bike but Parts prices high. Front sprocket $20 vs. $8 (CSC)

Neighbor worked in third world countries and he saw my new CSC. It's a China bike and he said that is all he saw in area he worked and 3-4 people riding one bike.

I would have probably got another tt250 and was planning to, but it was just little too big and heavy for my wife, she could have rode one and been fine. But the DR200 is a much better size.

pete · 03-29-2019, 12:17 AM

the DR is 13 years old....
what the chance the CSC what ever is not going in 13 years time
and then the DR will be 26 years old...and most lightly still running..

That's what you pay for....

Megadan · 03-29-2019, 04:36 AM

I second exactly what Pete said. It's the long term reliability that the Japanese bikes have over Chinese made bikes at this point.

The parts prices may be 5 times the cost, but it is not entirely without reason. The quality control, quality of components, and development time put into major OEM parts is a huge part of the reason they cost so much. Unlike most Chinese manufacturers, the big Japanese, European, and American manufacturers are in a constant and fierce competition for slim amounts of market sales. Their reputations are what make people come back, and all you have to do is look at the reaction most people have to a bike when a person finds out it is a Chinese made motorcycle.

CSC is admittedly doing a lot work in trying to improve the quality and reliability of these bikes, and that effort does also show in the price. A TT250 currently costs almost double that of a Hawk ($2595 delivered vs $1399 delivered). Yes, you get CARB certification and a lot of good upgrades for that money on the surface, but having used and held many TT250 parts in my hand to put on my Hawk I can also tell you that the general quality of those parts, even down to the axles, nuts, and bolts, is visibly and tangibly better.

If you took a brand new TT250 and say a brand new DR200S and took them completely apart and inspected everything side by side, that same tangible difference in quality will be apparent, not just in the individual parts, but in the way the bike is assembled, engineered, etc. An easy example of that is the 20hp out of the 199cc engine in the DR200 vs the 16hp of the 229cc clone engine. That is why the DR200S is about $2000 more expensive than the TT250.

pete · 03-29-2019, 05:34 AM

development time... how Meany million's dose that cost...
it has to be payed for...
most of the cheaper Chinese bikes are copied… So there is no
R&D costs to recover..

the new Yamaha 700 Tenere is due middle of this year..
the first rumours of it started 3 maybe even 4 years ago..

...

DualSport · 03-29-2019, 01:49 PM

I've pulled jap bikes that had been sitting in the weather for decades from bushes and sides of buildings and at most had to put new rings and plugs in before they idled. The worse was a '75 kz 400 that had sand from roof runoff decades old in the chambers; marvel mystery oil, plug, and new rings and it was running.

The taiwanese recycled scrap metal Shenzhen market bikes are made from would never survive that.. The plastics used are also like acrylic and would sun rot within a year probably..

elkhunter338 · 03-29-2019, 10:35 PM

What forced me to go CSC tt250 was I could not find a dual sport 125-350 in good shape that was not $1,000 more than a tt250 and 15 years old. Or a 40 year old bike for $1,000 less than a tt250. I looked for months and nothing in my area.
Well I saw the DR200 for 1,950, it ran ok did not idle the best but decent. Talk guy down to $1,800 (4,500 miles, clean). Got home would not idle. I just got a new fuel filter, line, and cleaned idle jet. Runs perfect now. Lots of power compared to the tt250. If the Jap. bikes were around in dual sport for a decent price I would have stuck with Jap.

Really if the tt250 runs for 10 years and 10,000 miles, I will happy.
Just went for a trail ride with my son, 30+ miles off road, trailer bikes to OHV trail system. TT's ran great.

culcune · 03-30-2019, 02:15 AM

As long as CSC stays strong, they will be one of the companies that will last. Lifan is no longer copying stuff (for a while now) and are developing their products with R&D and money. They are concentrating on small displacement bikes, and will most likely stay the course as long as people appreciate the bikes, as they have been appreciating the Zongshen bikes via CSC.

OneLeggedRider · 03-30-2019, 11:34 AM

What started me down the Chinese path was watching a YouTube video of some guy riding around town bashing Harley buyers, but he was riding a weird little street bike that I didn't recognize. So in the comments I asked him what it was. I forget the model but he said it was Chinese and and told me the price for it new. I immediately started looking for a dualsport china bike. I had seen some of the little quads, even worked on one. But for the money I decided the Hawk from Txpowersports was the way to go. I spent the next 2 weeks watching hawk videos and trying to find out the short comings, and the then ordered one. If I had known about the TT250 I probably would've got it instead, but the Hawk was already on it's way.

blksheep · 03-30-2019, 07:29 PM

I owned a 2016 DR200 ($5300 with tax and fees) and I now have a 2019 CSC TT250 ( $2595 delivered). It just arrived 3 days ago and after looking it over and a test drive I have to say I prefer the TT250. The seat is better and it feels better balanced to me. The clutch isnt as firm as the DR200 but feels good. The brakes are better than the DR200 also, although the front end does dive more on the TT250. I'll play with the dampening to see if that helps. Not as much power but it really doesnt feel that far off from the DR200 (at 65mph the engine was sceaming on the 200!). Im 5'9" and 170lbs and the TT250 pulls me right along. I havent done any mods yet but I have an ebay exhaust, jet kit and an air filter ready to install. Plus I plan on switching to a 45T rear sprocket. I love the less expensive parts too! It makes mods and tinkering fun again! One more thing. The customer service at CSC is top notch. The seat on my TT250 was damaged during shipping. A new seat was in the mail the next day. Plus I ordered some parts and accessories and had them 2 days later. My local Suzuki dealer couldnt (or wouldnt do that!). If anyone is on the fence about a chinese bike well take the leap!

psychprof · 03-30-2019, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blksheep

The customer service at CSC is top notch. The seat on my TT250 was damaged during shipping. A new seat was in the mail the next day. Plus I ordered some parts and accessories and had them 2 days later. My local Suzuki dealer couldnt (or wouldnt do that!). If anyone is on the fence about a chinese bike well take the leap!

You're also paying a premium for a bike from CSC. Your experience with CSC is far removed from that of many others who have purchase a Hawk from "other" online dealers. So, saying "take a leap" about a Chinese bike based on your experience with CSC isn't all that accurate. Taking a leap with CSC would be a good bet, but ordering a bike from these other online dealers is often a gamble. Take for example the story recently in the Street forum about the guy who ordered a grom clone from a "family-based" dealer. They are somewhat at the mercy of the shippers and he ended up with a bike that was badly damaged. I've read many many similar stories about these bikes from dealers other than CSC. So, CSC is probably great, but one does have to pay a premium for that peace of mind and customer service.

A New CSC TT250 is really about $2500 to your door, whereas one can get a Hawk delivered for about $1399. That's a big priced difference...if one has the money, then one should apt for the peace of mind that CSC would likely offer. Many don't have the extra money though and take the gamble. Some folks get their bike unharmed, others don't.

elkhunter338 · 03-30-2019, 11:03 PM

CSC

Tech support question via e-mail are promptly answered, good CD manual,

I too found the Suz. dealer to be no help. I stopped in to inquire about a carb rebuild kit, basically was told to order a kit on-line. They had no rubber grommets for the side panels.

CSC would have been very helpful and I am sure they have had the rubber grommets for the side panels on the tt.

blksheep · 03-30-2019, 11:49 PM

Im not here to promote any company. Just giving feedback on my experience. Again if anyone is thinking of getting on board the Chinese bike train do some homework. Im a 20 year ASE Master Technician who has owned many bikes so take my opinions with a grain of salt....

03-28-2019, 11:40 PM	#1
elkhunter338 Join Date: Dec 2018 Location: Oregon Posts: 81	china vs. Jap. I now have both 2018 CSC (100 miles) runs great; just got used 2006 DR 200 Suz., ran good on the test ride, trailered it home and now will not idle, carb. needs cleaned. Suzuki is a lighter, little smaller bike, work perfect for the wife. 20hp OH cam motor. Custom soft seat, its comfortable. Sticker shock on parts, I priced some carb. parts, Wow roughly 5x the cost. Can't find rubber grommets for the side panels. Bike has 4,500 miles, clean bike. $1,800. Quality wise some stuff on the Suz. is better, some not. For example the front sprocket cover is plastic vs. CSC metal. I like the metal one. Other items are for sure better quality. It's a nice bike but Parts prices high. Front sprocket $20 vs. $8 (CSC) Neighbor worked in third world countries and he saw my new CSC. It's a China bike and he said that is all he saw in area he worked and 3-4 people riding one bike. I would have probably got another tt250 and was planning to, but it was just little too big and heavy for my wife, she could have rode one and been fine. But the DR200 is a much better size.
	2

03-29-2019, 12:17 AM	#2
pete Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: ChCh , NZ Posts: 2,262	the DR is 13 years old.... what the chance the CSC what ever is not going in 13 years time and then the DR will be 26 years old...and most lightly still running.. That's what you pay for.... __________________ 09 XT660R ... 06 TTR250 ... 80 Montesa H6 125 Enduro... 77 Montesa Cota 348 MRR "Malcom Rathnell Replica"... Current resto projects.. 81 Honda CT110... 80 Kawasaki KL250A1... 11 Husaburg TE125 enduro... "sold" along with another 31... Lifan 125 Pitbike.. "stolen" ... KIWI BIKER FORUM...... http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/content.php All the best offroad rides in NZ... http://www.remotemoto.com/ E-mail... xtpete1@gmail.com
	1

03-29-2019, 04:36 AM	#3
Megadan Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Omaha, NE Posts: 8,044	I second exactly what Pete said. It's the long term reliability that the Japanese bikes have over Chinese made bikes at this point. The parts prices may be 5 times the cost, but it is not entirely without reason. The quality control, quality of components, and development time put into major OEM parts is a huge part of the reason they cost so much. Unlike most Chinese manufacturers, the big Japanese, European, and American manufacturers are in a constant and fierce competition for slim amounts of market sales. Their reputations are what make people come back, and all you have to do is look at the reaction most people have to a bike when a person finds out it is a Chinese made motorcycle. CSC is admittedly doing a lot work in trying to improve the quality and reliability of these bikes, and that effort does also show in the price. A TT250 currently costs almost double that of a Hawk ($2595 delivered vs $1399 delivered). Yes, you get CARB certification and a lot of good upgrades for that money on the surface, but having used and held many TT250 parts in my hand to put on my Hawk I can also tell you that the general quality of those parts, even down to the axles, nuts, and bolts, is visibly and tangibly better. If you took a brand new TT250 and say a brand new DR200S and took them completely apart and inspected everything side by side, that same tangible difference in quality will be apparent, not just in the individual parts, but in the way the bike is assembled, engineered, etc. An easy example of that is the 20hp out of the 199cc engine in the DR200 vs the 16hp of the 229cc clone engine. That is why the DR200S is about $2000 more expensive than the TT250. __________________ Hawk Information and Resource guide: http://www.chinariders.net/showthread.php?t=20331 2018 Hawk 250 - Full Mod list here. http://www.chinariders.net/showpost....62&postcount=1 2024 Royal Enfield Shotgun 650 https://chinariders.net/showthread.php?t=34124
	2

03-29-2019, 05:34 AM	#4
pete Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: ChCh , NZ Posts: 2,262	development time... how Meany million's dose that cost... it has to be payed for... most of the cheaper Chinese bikes are copied… So there is no R&D costs to recover.. the new Yamaha 700 Tenere is due middle of this year.. the first rumours of it started 3 maybe even 4 years ago.. ... __________________ 09 XT660R ... 06 TTR250 ... 80 Montesa H6 125 Enduro... 77 Montesa Cota 348 MRR "Malcom Rathnell Replica"... Current resto projects.. 81 Honda CT110... 80 Kawasaki KL250A1... 11 Husaburg TE125 enduro... "sold" along with another 31... Lifan 125 Pitbike.. "stolen" ... KIWI BIKER FORUM...... http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/content.php All the best offroad rides in NZ... http://www.remotemoto.com/ E-mail... xtpete1@gmail.com
	0

03-30-2019, 02:15 AM	#7
culcune Join Date: May 2006 Location: Yuma, Arizona Posts: 9,035	As long as CSC stays strong, they will be one of the companies that will last. Lifan is no longer copying stuff (for a while now) and are developing their products with R&D and money. They are concentrating on small displacement bikes, and will most likely stay the course as long as people appreciate the bikes, as they have been appreciating the Zongshen bikes via CSC. __________________ "They say that life's a carousel, spinning fast you got to ride it well..." TGB Delivery Scooter 150 TMEC 200 Enduro--carcass is sadly rotting in the backyard
	0

03-29-2019, 01:49 PM	#5
DualSport Join Date: Sep 2018 Posts: 173	I've pulled jap bikes that had been sitting in the weather for decades from bushes and sides of buildings and at most had to put new rings and plugs in before they idled. The worse was a '75 kz 400 that had sand from roof runoff decades old in the chambers; marvel mystery oil, plug, and new rings and it was running. The taiwanese recycled scrap metal Shenzhen market bikes are made from would never survive that.. The plastics used are also like acrylic and would sun rot within a year probably..
	1

03-29-2019, 10:35 PM	#6
elkhunter338 Join Date: Dec 2018 Location: Oregon Posts: 81	What forced me to go CSC tt250 was I could not find a dual sport 125-350 in good shape that was not $1,000 more than a tt250 and 15 years old. Or a 40 year old bike for $1,000 less than a tt250. I looked for months and nothing in my area. Well I saw the DR200 for 1,950, it ran ok did not idle the best but decent. Talk guy down to $1,800 (4,500 miles, clean). Got home would not idle. I just got a new fuel filter, line, and cleaned idle jet. Runs perfect now. Lots of power compared to the tt250. If the Jap. bikes were around in dual sport for a decent price I would have stuck with Jap. Really if the tt250 runs for 10 years and 10,000 miles, I will happy. Just went for a trail ride with my son, 30+ miles off road, trailer bikes to OHV trail system. TT's ran great.
	2

03-30-2019, 11:34 AM	#8
OneLeggedRider Join Date: Nov 2018 Location: Stockport, Oh. Posts: 1,442	What started me down the Chinese path was watching a YouTube video of some guy riding around town bashing Harley buyers, but he was riding a weird little street bike that I didn't recognize. So in the comments I asked him what it was. I forget the model but he said it was Chinese and and told me the price for it new. I immediately started looking for a dualsport china bike. I had seen some of the little quads, even worked on one. But for the money I decided the Hawk from Txpowersports was the way to go. I spent the next 2 weeks watching hawk videos and trying to find out the short comings, and the then ordered one. If I had known about the TT250 I probably would've got it instead, but the Hawk was already on it's way.
	0

03-30-2019, 07:29 PM	#9
blksheep Join Date: Feb 2019 Location: New England Posts: 25	I owned a 2016 DR200 ($5300 with tax and fees) and I now have a 2019 CSC TT250 ( $2595 delivered). It just arrived 3 days ago and after looking it over and a test drive I have to say I prefer the TT250. The seat is better and it feels better balanced to me. The clutch isnt as firm as the DR200 but feels good. The brakes are better than the DR200 also, although the front end does dive more on the TT250. I'll play with the dampening to see if that helps. Not as much power but it really doesnt feel that far off from the DR200 (at 65mph the engine was sceaming on the 200!). Im 5'9" and 170lbs and the TT250 pulls me right along. I havent done any mods yet but I have an ebay exhaust, jet kit and an air filter ready to install. Plus I plan on switching to a 45T rear sprocket. I love the less expensive parts too! It makes mods and tinkering fun again! One more thing. The customer service at CSC is top notch. The seat on my TT250 was damaged during shipping. A new seat was in the mail the next day. Plus I ordered some parts and accessories and had them 2 days later. My local Suzuki dealer couldnt (or wouldnt do that!). If anyone is on the fence about a chinese bike well take the leap!
	0

03-30-2019, 11:03 PM	#11
elkhunter338 Join Date: Dec 2018 Location: Oregon Posts: 81	CSC Tech support question via e-mail are promptly answered, good CD manual, I too found the Suz. dealer to be no help. I stopped in to inquire about a carb rebuild kit, basically was told to order a kit on-line. They had no rubber grommets for the side panels. CSC would have been very helpful and I am sure they have had the rubber grommets for the side panels on the tt.
	1

03-30-2019, 11:49 PM	#12
blksheep Join Date: Feb 2019 Location: New England Posts: 25	Im not here to promote any company. Just giving feedback on my experience. Again if anyone is thinking of getting on board the Chinese bike train do some homework. Im a 20 year ASE Master Technician who has owned many bikes so take my opinions with a grain of salt....
	0