Oil Analysis - Page 2

madsocial · 05-14-2016, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbfla

I noticed you had 4.5 % fuel. Pretty high IMO.

You had 500 miles on your oil, and I had 1,000 miles with 1% fuel.

I talked with a tech at Blackstone today. He said there was nothing to worry about in the report.

I asked about the TBN number which is supposed to indicate the amount of additives left in the oil.

My TBN number was 6.6. The tech said that new, unused oil has a TBN number of 9 or 10, and there is no concern until it gets down to 1.

He also said that they haven't done many analysis' on the NC 250 engine, so the averages that they compare to may not be entirely accurate until they get more samples.

He was a little surprised about the aluminum content when I told him that this was the fourth oil change I have done...200, 600, 1400, and 2400 miles.

I'm at 3,200 miles now, and will probably send in one more sample at 4,000 miles

I'm not overly concerned about too much wear, but the little 250 is a hard working engine. It seems to like 6,000 to 8,000 rpm all the time.

jb

@pyoungbl just told me he has about 3% fuel in the test he just did from Blackstone.

This is really weird. Why is fuel getting into the oil?

Azhule · 05-14-2016, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madsocial

This is really weird. Why is fuel getting into the oil?

Do they do a lot of 'short trips' or long 45+ minute rides?

pyoungbl · 05-14-2016, 07:27 PM

I just did 673 miles in three days. Sent in an oil sample. Let's see how this new one does. On the first sample I did some shorter trips (20 or so miles) during early break-in but then about 400 miles in a weekend, then took the sample that had 3% fuel. I don't think trip length is the issue.

Peter Y.

Lee R · 05-14-2016, 08:08 PM

I just took another sample and changed mine at 2000 miles. Oil reeks of fuel. At room tempurature the oil looks about as thin as water in the sample jar. I'm really curious how degraded the viscosity is in this sample.

Somethings definitely not right with my engine, this much gas should not be in the oil.

I ride typically 10-300 miles per trip with the RX3, this sample came out after a 150 mile ride.

Fuel is contaminating the oil severely and the bike should be pretty much broken in by now so somethings wrong. I'm going to stop riding the RX3 until I see the results and fix this, right now the engine is probably suffering accelerated wear.

jbfla · 05-14-2016, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee R

I just took another sample and changed mine at 2000 miles. Oil reeks of fuel. At room tempurature the oil looks about as thin as water in the sample jar. I'm really curious how degraded the viscosity is in this sample.

Somethings definitely not right with my engine, this much gas should not be in the oil.

I ride typically 10-300 miles per trip with the RX3, this sample came out after a 150 mile ride.

Fuel is contaminating the oil severely and the bike should be pretty much broken in by now so somethings wrong. I'm going to stop riding the RX3 until I see the results and fix this, right now the engine is probably suffering accelerated wear.

Yes, something definitely amiss.

I sent off a sample just prior to having the cam replaced.

The results should be back soon.

Most of my rides are 2+ hours in duration.

jb

madsocial · 05-15-2016, 08:44 AM

I'm going to send in a test once the bike has 500 miles. I don't plan on changing the oil at 50,200, 500 and so on as I have read some folks are doing. I just feel like that is just too much. Yesterday I rode it for the first time and kept the RPMs under 6,000. I figured I would continue this until the first 500 and then from there I should be alright. It will be interesting to see what the test results come in at.
After looking at a few of the results that have come in, it seems like we (as a group) are going to have to compile all the data to really come up with numbers that are specific to this bike, since Blackstone says they have not done a lot with these motors yet.

SpudRider · 05-15-2016, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee R

I just took another sample and changed mine at 2000 miles. Oil reeks of fuel. At room tempurature the oil looks about as thin as water in the sample jar. I'm really curious how degraded the viscosity is in this sample.

Somethings definitely not right with my engine, this much gas should not be in the oil.

I ride typically 10-300 miles per trip with the RX3, this sample came out after a 150 mile ride.

Fuel is contaminating the oil severely and the bike should be pretty much broken in by now so somethings wrong. I'm going to stop riding the RX3 until I see the results and fix this, right now the engine is probably suffering accelerated wear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbfla

Yes, something definitely amiss.

I sent off a sample just prior to having the cam replaced.

The results should be back soon.

Most of my rides are 2+ hours in duration.

jb

I agree with JB. Something is definitely amiss.

Thanks for keeping us updated on this issue.

katflap · 05-16-2016, 01:02 PM

I have suffered this fuel in the oil problem.
I have changed the injector, suspecting a leak, no difference.

Blow-by gasses contaminating the oil with fuel etc. happens to all engines.

Perhaps the high compression ratio doesn't help, but I think the issue is how well and quickly the engine gets rid of it distorts the impression of how much or how little blow by there is and how much or little contaminant a particular engine has in its crank case.

My personal opinion is that the engine runs too cold, particularly in winter.
so the oil often doesn't get hot enough and sometimes for long enough to evaporate off the contaminants.

This winter I blocked off one radiator to encourage a quick warm up and hotter running. also, where possible making sure the temp gauge hits 3 bars at some point in my ride.
I have fitted a thermometer radiator cap so I can keep a good eye on the temp.
Since doing this I no longer have a rising oil level and oil that now only has a faint wiff of fuel from the oil.

crimsenblaze · 05-16-2016, 01:31 PM

Hey all, Joe just updated the CSC Blog. Concerning this topic.
I would link it but I'm not sure how.

SpudRider · 05-16-2016, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crimsenblaze

Hey all, Joe just updated the CSC Blog. Concerning this topic.
I would link it but I'm not sure how.

Thanks for alerting us to the CSC Blog article, CB.

Here is a link to the blog post in question.

http://californiascooterco.com/blog/?p=21425

pyoungbl · 05-16-2016, 02:04 PM

This sample @ 685 miles. Engine always fully warmed up. Last 400 miles at highway speed, usually for 2 hours at a time. The past 6 oil samples from other 4 stroke motorcycles have indicated less than 0.5% fuel. Those samples were usually taken at 5-6K miles. Note the viscosity from this sample, well below norms. 10W40 oil. I'm confused.

willy dog · 05-16-2016, 03:01 PM

katflap might be on the right track i have only seen 3bars on temp gauge and that is only when pulling a long hill. There is something i do out of habit from truck driving days on WOT climbing a hill if the zong starts to lose power and i am near the crest of the hill let off the throttle a little less fuel more air and it will gain power back just a thought

pyoungbl · 05-16-2016, 03:14 PM

Here's a scientific paper addressing the issue of fuel in the engine oil. My head hurts from trying to read all of it. Bottom line, 3% fuel is not all that bad but 5% is.

hrcak.srce.hr/file/75680

katflap · 05-16-2016, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willy dog

katflap might be on the right track i have only seen 3bars on temp gauge and that is only when pulling a long hill. There is something i do out of habit from truck driving days on WOT climbing a hill if the zong starts to lose power and i am near the crest of the hill let off the throttle a little less fuel more air and it will gain power back just a thought

A while back I did a bar to temp comparison, the bars had quite a wide range when they would show so sometimes they would show earlier or later then stated. This is a rough comparison i will do a better one soon.

1 bar = 35c ( 95F)

2 bars= 52c (125F)

3 bars = 80c ( 176F)

this image came from a car book so it might not apply to motorcycles.

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pyoungbl · 05-16-2016, 04:21 PM

Kat, on a sorta related note....last weekend I was riding in the rain, sometimes pretty heavy, and at one point was climbing a steep hill (in the mountains) at about 50-55 mph in 5th (as I recall). This went on for a couple minutes of steady WOT to maintain the speed. I looked down and saw the right turn signal indicator blinking at an odd rate. This was not a steady blink, almost like morse code. The turn indicator was not blinking, just the light on the dash. Since you have done more exploring into the electronics you might have some idea of what was going on. After I crested the mountain pass and rode for a couple minutes the blinking stopped. By that time the rain had stopped too. Any ideas?

05-15-2016, 08:44 AM	#21
madsocial Join Date: Feb 2016 Location: Maryland Posts: 213	I'm going to send in a test once the bike has 500 miles. I don't plan on changing the oil at 50,200, 500 and so on as I have read some folks are doing. I just feel like that is just too much. Yesterday I rode it for the first time and kept the RPMs under 6,000. I figured I would continue this until the first 500 and then from there I should be alright. It will be interesting to see what the test results come in at. After looking at a few of the results that have come in, it seems like we (as a group) are going to have to compile all the data to really come up with numbers that are specific to this bike, since Blackstone says they have not done a lot with these motors yet. __________________ Cheers! Rania aka madsocial 2016 Zongshen RX3 (CSC Cyclone) Pay it Forward!
	0

05-16-2016, 02:04 PM	#26
pyoungbl Join Date: Feb 2016 Location: Portsmouth, Virginia, USA Posts: 632	This sample @ 685 miles. Engine always fully warmed up. Last 400 miles at highway speed, usually for 2 hours at a time. The past 6 oil samples from other 4 stroke motorcycles have indicated less than 0.5% fuel. Those samples were usually taken at 5-6K miles. Note the viscosity from this sample, well below norms. 10W40 oil. I'm confused. Last edited by pyoungbl; 05-16-2016 at 02:05 PM. Reason: correct mileage
	0

05-16-2016, 03:01 PM	#27
willy dog Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: vermont Posts: 238	katflap might be on the right track i have only seen 3bars on temp gauge and that is only when pulling a long hill. There is something i do out of habit from truck driving days on WOT climbing a hill if the zong starts to lose power and i am near the crest of the hill let off the throttle a little less fuel more air and it will gain power back just a thought __________________ Peace and Zong Life
	1

05-14-2016, 07:27 PM	#18
pyoungbl Join Date: Feb 2016 Location: Portsmouth, Virginia, USA Posts: 632	I just did 673 miles in three days. Sent in an oil sample. Let's see how this new one does. On the first sample I did some shorter trips (20 or so miles) during early break-in but then about 400 miles in a weekend, then took the sample that had 3% fuel. I don't think trip length is the issue. Peter Y.
	2

05-14-2016, 08:08 PM	#19
Lee R Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Upstate NY Posts: 343	I just took another sample and changed mine at 2000 miles. Oil reeks of fuel. At room tempurature the oil looks about as thin as water in the sample jar. I'm really curious how degraded the viscosity is in this sample. Somethings definitely not right with my engine, this much gas should not be in the oil. I ride typically 10-300 miles per trip with the RX3, this sample came out after a 150 mile ride. Fuel is contaminating the oil severely and the bike should be pretty much broken in by now so somethings wrong. I'm going to stop riding the RX3 until I see the results and fix this, right now the engine is probably suffering accelerated wear.
	2

05-16-2016, 01:02 PM	#23
katflap Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: England Posts: 382	I have suffered this fuel in the oil problem. I have changed the injector, suspecting a leak, no difference. Blow-by gasses contaminating the oil with fuel etc. happens to all engines. Perhaps the high compression ratio doesn't help, but I think the issue is how well and quickly the engine gets rid of it distorts the impression of how much or how little blow by there is and how much or little contaminant a particular engine has in its crank case. My personal opinion is that the engine runs too cold, particularly in winter. so the oil often doesn't get hot enough and sometimes for long enough to evaporate off the contaminants. This winter I blocked off one radiator to encourage a quick warm up and hotter running. also, where possible making sure the temp gauge hits 3 bars at some point in my ride. I have fitted a thermometer radiator cap so I can keep a good eye on the temp. Since doing this I no longer have a rising oil level and oil that now only has a faint wiff of fuel from the oil.
	1

05-16-2016, 01:31 PM	#24
crimsenblaze Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Southern New Jersey USA Posts: 32	Hey all, Joe just updated the CSC Blog. Concerning this topic. I would link it but I'm not sure how.
	0

05-16-2016, 03:14 PM	#28
pyoungbl Join Date: Feb 2016 Location: Portsmouth, Virginia, USA Posts: 632	Here's a scientific paper addressing the issue of fuel in the engine oil. My head hurts from trying to read all of it. Bottom line, 3% fuel is not all that bad but 5% is. hrcak.srce.hr/file/75680
	0

05-16-2016, 04:21 PM	#30
pyoungbl Join Date: Feb 2016 Location: Portsmouth, Virginia, USA Posts: 632	Kat, on a sorta related note....last weekend I was riding in the rain, sometimes pretty heavy, and at one point was climbing a steep hill (in the mountains) at about 50-55 mph in 5th (as I recall). This went on for a couple minutes of steady WOT to maintain the speed. I looked down and saw the right turn signal indicator blinking at an odd rate. This was not a steady blink, almost like morse code. The turn indicator was not blinking, just the light on the dash. Since you have done more exploring into the electronics you might have some idea of what was going on. After I crested the mountain pass and rode for a couple minutes the blinking stopped. By that time the rain had stopped too. Any ideas?
	0