Hawk DLX- Died after 5 miles! - Page 3

J4Fun · 08-09-2021, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by franque

I would advise you to do things simply, and start with the valves.

If you're new to anything diagnostic, start with the simplest things, those which are easiest to test/verify, that being 1. Sparkplug, throw a new one in it, then verify that you have spark 2. Valves, verify what I said first with your clearances, 3. Air - verify that the air cleaner is clean, and that there are no air leaks, and 4. fuel - verify that the injector is spraying fuel.

If all of those things are good, then we can start looking into other potential problems. For everyone else "contributing" their ideas, please wait for confirmation of the simple things before throwing out other ideas.

There are quite the deluge of ideas being put forth, and it is very easy to confuse someone with the flood of ideas coming about.

Until the basics are verified, we should refrain from muddling up the thread with 100s of disparate ideas, it's too much. This needs to be approached from a systematic process, not a bunch of random guesses.

OP: If you have any questions, particularly the process of doing any of what I've described above, feel free to PM me, I'm happy to help. I'm a professional motorcycle mechanic, and I'm available if you need me.

Rotten fuel causing the problem! Not valve adjustments! My thoughts! Think why it happened in 5 miles...my thoughts

J4Fun · 08-09-2021, 05:46 PM

Another thought guys I have a new DLX too and I rinsed the fuel out of the tank knowing it was bad and adjusted the valves and changed the oil prior to starting! My thoughts again...

franque · 08-09-2021, 06:37 PM

If the fuel was bad, it wouldn't have initially run unless the pump is clogged up. I'm not 100% confident he did the valve adjustment correctly, so I'm encouraging him to verify that first.

J4Fun · 08-09-2021, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by franque

If the fuel was bad, it wouldn't have initially run unless the pump is clogged up. I'm not 100% confident he did the valve adjustment correctly, so I'm encouraging him to verify that first.

I hear you Franque, but you need to hear me, 5 miles is indicative of bad fuel not bad valve adjustments. These bikes I think have fuel sitting in them for months. Hence why I changed my fuel before starting. As I see it he had a complete build and probably not a fuel rinse. Trying to help and just my thoughts!

franque · 08-09-2021, 09:02 PM

You need to hear me, I'm speaking from much more experience than just one single model. If it ran for 5 miles, short of plugging something up, bad gas isn't what killed it.

In fact, I've never seen an injected bike or ATV for that matter that wouldn't run on bad gas, so long as nothing was plugged up/rotted out.

My guess is that in your case the disassembly dislodged something causing the problem, and flushing it cleaned it out. Ethanol containing gas does not get bad enough over only a couple of months to keep it from running in an injected engine.

If it was carbureted, I would agree with you, but the age of the gas means that if it was bad enough to keep it from running, it wouldn't have run the 5 miles before starting. It's much more likely, based on his description, that he screwed up the valve adjustment.

That could happen after 5 miles, especially if the exhaust had no clearance at startup (which happens) and then a combination of that and running in for the first time under load, causing a combination of heat and the valve seating deeper to cause it to have no compression, because a valve is stuck open.

Bill Hilly · 08-09-2021, 09:20 PM

The owner of the bike needs to try what he has been advised to do, and narrow it down to spark , or fuel, and while I don't necessarily think the original issue is most likely valve adjustment, I do think he has since adjusted on TDC of exhaust stroke, rather than compression. I lean towards an electronic components failing, causing problems with spark, or fuel since it's injected, but as I said the owner need to follow some of the advise he has asked for, and at least know if it's firing, or will hit if primed. He needs to re adjust his valves while being positive of being at the top of the compression stroke.

herbie · 08-10-2021, 10:47 AM

To the original poster, Fuel, air, spark are basics for baseline diagnostics but don’t forget compression. I agree with Franque, make sure your valve lash is correct! After that I would make a trip to harbor freight and buy a compression tester so you have real numbers to work with. It’s only like $30 for the tester and it would rule out valve problems if you have good compression. And you made need the tester again sometime, it’s always a good time to buy tools

ChillRider · 08-10-2021, 11:02 AM

Just a thought here, I used to have a car (2001 Renault Megane Coupe) whose engine was notorious for developing a crankcase position sensor problem, and, since this is an EFI bike, I assume that it must have an equivalent.

In the case of the car, problems with that sensor could range from not being able to start one random morning (or even after filling up gas, or any random stop/engine shutdown really), to the engine quitting on you while cruising on the highway. Repeatedly.

After such an event, the car restarted whenever it felt like it, until you fudged with the sensor. Sometimes it was the connector (those were so unreliable that Renault had TWO recalls for the connector's shape), sometimes you had to pull it out of the engine and give it a good clean, and sometimes, well, it just died. It paid to carry a 10mm wrench and a few spares with you and learning how to swap them out yourself by the roadside...

Trying to start the car with a dead/malfunctioning sensor resulted in a kind of "hollow", unusually fast cranking that felt as if it almost had no compression. I'm not sure if that killed spark or fuel, or both, or simply threw the timings so off that the engine didn't work anymore.

stewbrash · 08-10-2021, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by herbie

To the original poster, Fuel, air, spark are basics for baseline diagnostics but don’t forget compression. I agree with Franque, make sure your valve lash is correct! After that I would make a trip to harbor freight and buy a compression tester so you have real numbers to work with. It’s only like $30 for the tester and it would rule out valve problems if you have good compression. And you made need the tester again sometime, it’s always a good time to buy tools

Spark tester:https://www.harborfreight.com/90-in-...RoCo6gQAvD_BwE

Compression tester:https://www.harborfreight.com/compre...-pc-62638.html

Starter Fluid:https://www.walmart.com/ip/Super-Tec...E&gclsrc=aw.ds

In the time it took to type this you could have eliminated a few problems areas that are causing you grief.

China Rider 27 · 08-10-2021, 02:29 PM

I don't think I've seen more comprehensive troubleshooting recommendations. Where is the OP? Trail riding?

stewbrash · 08-10-2021, 02:47 PM

Probably ran out of gas. LOL!

Plump Kibbles · 08-10-2021, 03:37 PM

How was idling; around the 1.5kRPM range? I believe there's a valve that can get blocked up from blow-by, but not sure if this would be preventing the bike from starting.

Petcock valve - maybe? What about the tank's breather tube on the gas cap; mine came installed *get this* backwards so it was just creating a vacuum bubble inside the gas tank lol engine would run for a few min then no flow to the bulb. Also wouldn't start back up unless the vacuum was broken. Just staring from easy check points - sounds like you did that well

Also spark coil that was put on from factory didn't have a ground point - the ground was there, but the lead was attached to a heavily painted bracket on the frame without making contact to the frame itself; may take a look while you're doing valves? As well had a pulled ground from the ignition on arrival - easy fix, little bit-o-soldering. Had to move the wiring harness around to find the broken wire.

Have you checked to see if the fuel pump is pumping fuel? Wild shot in the dark, sounds like it's just dry? .. And I'm not sure how to take a code scan from these, pretty sure you have to have an adapter of some kind to do so. If I were close I could make a harness to use OBDII to the bike plug. I saw a scanner for the Hawk bikes but the price is very, very expensive just to scan; like 300 bucks!.. On the err of ECU stuff - you can reset it and see if that helps to zero out the trims and ST/LT readings so far. When you first started the engine, how long did you let it idle? Any new stuff with an ECU I let idle for around 5-10min so the ECU sets all the trims. Just pull the negative battery terminal, key in - ignition on, let it sit for a few hours to drain all the remaining power from the capacitors.

Valve lash adjustment blew me away at first too - but it's probably the least daunting of tasks lol as long as you can get TDC, you're fine. I can send you one of my 3D printed valve tools if you're interested - ABS or PETG, your choice. 4mm square bit knob, pop it on when you have the set nut loose and wrench on, adjust, tighten, set the nut - pretty fast! I'd say .003 for the intake and .003 exhaust lash for about 500mi., then go up to .004 for both after break-in. You will need to check valve lash every 500mi. or so for the first 1500mi. I'm on my second adjustment - .003 exhaust / intake was perfect for break in; my next will be at 1500mi. and going up to .004 for both. On the second valve check, they got reeeeeeeally tight again too. Maybe take a peek at your TPS voltage; should be about 5V resting, steadily increasing as you're opening throttle. AH - just remembered, when my SAI system was still on, I had a strange issue where the vacuum tube was up around the top of the engine block and getting smashed in between the frame and the engine making no flow - this was preventing my bike from staying on as well - that was the first 'mod' I did removing the SAI system.. I had a few issues while I was assembling lol

stewbrash · 08-10-2021, 11:35 PM

Hey Mr. Plump Kibbles...I would like one of those 3D valve tools too! You should sell those to us Chinariders...I'll have one in carbon-fiber...lol!

Plump Kibbles · 08-12-2021, 03:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stewbrash

Hey Mr. Plump Kibbles...I would like one of those 3D valve tools too! You should sell those to us Chinariders...I'll have one in carbon-fiber...lol!

Not my model, I got it from Thinigiverse - I'm not good with CAD lol I'm trying photogrammetry at the moment to make models from pictures of objects.

Can't do carbon though - heat cap lol would be nice. Heard it's really not that great though - couldn't say for sure. I'll get some printed off and we'll go from there!

FunkyChina · 09-03-2021, 07:31 PM

Thanks everyone. I took it to a local mechanic who was willing to take a look at it. He's had it for almost a month and has finally said there is a valve was not operating correctly and that there was no compression at all. He is going to replace the head, piston and jug (I have no idea what a jug is).

At this rate, by the time I get this fixed, riding season will be over :(

08-10-2021, 10:47 AM	#37
herbie Join Date: May 2019 Location: Illinois Posts: 864	To the original poster, Fuel, air, spark are basics for baseline diagnostics but don’t forget compression. I agree with Franque, make sure your valve lash is correct! After that I would make a trip to harbor freight and buy a compression tester so you have real numbers to work with. It’s only like $30 for the tester and it would rule out valve problems if you have good compression. And you made need the tester again sometime, it’s always a good time to buy tools __________________ 2022 Venom KPR 200 Red- the fastest color 16t and 46t sprockets, NGK Iridium CPR8EAIX-9, aftermarket full exhaust system. Top speed 81GPS 2023 Venom SS3 KP mini 150– Nibbi carb, Nibbi air filter, aftermarket muffler, decat 2022 Venom Ghost chopper 250 1997 Honda GL1500 Goldwing 1978 Kawasaki KL250 https://youtube.com/@herbiesgarage681
	0

08-10-2021, 03:37 PM	#42
Plump Kibbles Join Date: Sep 2020 Location: Virginia Posts: 233	How was idling; around the 1.5kRPM range? I believe there's a valve that can get blocked up from blow-by, but not sure if this would be preventing the bike from starting. Petcock valve - maybe? What about the tank's breather tube on the gas cap; mine came installed get this backwards so it was just creating a vacuum bubble inside the gas tank lol engine would run for a few min then no flow to the bulb. Also wouldn't start back up unless the vacuum was broken. Just staring from easy check points - sounds like you did that well Also spark coil that was put on from factory didn't have a ground point - the ground was there, but the lead was attached to a heavily painted bracket on the frame without making contact to the frame itself; may take a look while you're doing valves? As well had a pulled ground from the ignition on arrival - easy fix, little bit-o-soldering. Had to move the wiring harness around to find the broken wire. Have you checked to see if the fuel pump is pumping fuel? Wild shot in the dark, sounds like it's just dry? .. And I'm not sure how to take a code scan from these, pretty sure you have to have an adapter of some kind to do so. If I were close I could make a harness to use OBDII to the bike plug. I saw a scanner for the Hawk bikes but the price is very, very expensive just to scan; like 300 bucks!.. On the err of ECU stuff - you can reset it and see if that helps to zero out the trims and ST/LT readings so far. When you first started the engine, how long did you let it idle? Any new stuff with an ECU I let idle for around 5-10min so the ECU sets all the trims. Just pull the negative battery terminal, key in - ignition on, let it sit for a few hours to drain all the remaining power from the capacitors. Valve lash adjustment blew me away at first too - but it's probably the least daunting of tasks lol as long as you can get TDC, you're fine. I can send you one of my 3D printed valve tools if you're interested - ABS or PETG, your choice. 4mm square bit knob, pop it on when you have the set nut loose and wrench on, adjust, tighten, set the nut - pretty fast! I'd say .003 for the intake and .003 exhaust lash for about 500mi., then go up to .004 for both after break-in. You will need to check valve lash every 500mi. or so for the first 1500mi. I'm on my second adjustment - .003 exhaust / intake was perfect for break in; my next will be at 1500mi. and going up to .004 for both. On the second valve check, they got reeeeeeeally tight again too. Maybe take a peek at your TPS voltage; should be about 5V resting, steadily increasing as you're opening throttle. AH - just remembered, when my SAI system was still on, I had a strange issue where the vacuum tube was up around the top of the engine block and getting smashed in between the frame and the engine making no flow - this was preventing my bike from staying on as well - that was the first 'mod' I did removing the SAI system.. I had a few issues while I was assembling lol __________________ \|2020 X-Pro Titan DLX\| <-- FOR SALE!!
	2

08-09-2021, 05:46 PM	#32
J4Fun Join Date: May 2021 Posts: 285	Another thought guys I have a new DLX too and I rinsed the fuel out of the tank knowing it was bad and adjusted the valves and changed the oil prior to starting! My thoughts again...
	0

08-09-2021, 06:37 PM	#33
franque Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Marseille, France -> Conakry, Guinea Posts: 1,481	If the fuel was bad, it wouldn't have initially run unless the pump is clogged up. I'm not 100% confident he did the valve adjustment correctly, so I'm encouraging him to verify that first.
	1

08-09-2021, 09:02 PM	#35
franque Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Marseille, France -> Conakry, Guinea Posts: 1,481	You need to hear me, I'm speaking from much more experience than just one single model. If it ran for 5 miles, short of plugging something up, bad gas isn't what killed it. In fact, I've never seen an injected bike or ATV for that matter that wouldn't run on bad gas, so long as nothing was plugged up/rotted out. My guess is that in your case the disassembly dislodged something causing the problem, and flushing it cleaned it out. Ethanol containing gas does not get bad enough over only a couple of months to keep it from running in an injected engine. If it was carbureted, I would agree with you, but the age of the gas means that if it was bad enough to keep it from running, it wouldn't have run the 5 miles before starting. It's much more likely, based on his description, that he screwed up the valve adjustment. That could happen after 5 miles, especially if the exhaust had no clearance at startup (which happens) and then a combination of that and running in for the first time under load, causing a combination of heat and the valve seating deeper to cause it to have no compression, because a valve is stuck open.
	1

08-09-2021, 09:20 PM	#36
Bill Hilly Join Date: Feb 2021 Posts: 940	The owner of the bike needs to try what he has been advised to do, and narrow it down to spark , or fuel, and while I don't necessarily think the original issue is most likely valve adjustment, I do think he has since adjusted on TDC of exhaust stroke, rather than compression. I lean towards an electronic components failing, causing problems with spark, or fuel since it's injected, but as I said the owner need to follow some of the advise he has asked for, and at least know if it's firing, or will hit if primed. He needs to re adjust his valves while being positive of being at the top of the compression stroke.
	3

08-10-2021, 11:02 AM	#38
ChillRider Join Date: Jun 2020 Location: A small country with a funny name Posts: 164	Just a thought here, I used to have a car (2001 Renault Megane Coupe) whose engine was notorious for developing a crankcase position sensor problem, and, since this is an EFI bike, I assume that it must have an equivalent. In the case of the car, problems with that sensor could range from not being able to start one random morning (or even after filling up gas, or any random stop/engine shutdown really), to the engine quitting on you while cruising on the highway. Repeatedly. After such an event, the car restarted whenever it felt like it, until you fudged with the sensor. Sometimes it was the connector (those were so unreliable that Renault had TWO recalls for the connector's shape), sometimes you had to pull it out of the engine and give it a good clean, and sometimes, well, it just died. It paid to carry a 10mm wrench and a few spares with you and learning how to swap them out yourself by the roadside... Trying to start the car with a dead/malfunctioning sensor resulted in a kind of "hollow", unusually fast cranking that felt as if it almost had no compression. I'm not sure if that killed spark or fuel, or both, or simply threw the timings so off that the engine didn't work anymore.
	0

08-10-2021, 02:29 PM	#40
China Rider 27 Join Date: Dec 2018 Location: PNW Posts: 982	I don't think I've seen more comprehensive troubleshooting recommendations. Where is the OP? Trail riding?
	1

08-10-2021, 02:47 PM	#41
stewbrash Join Date: Oct 2016 Posts: 405	Probably ran out of gas. LOL!
	1

08-10-2021, 11:35 PM	#43
stewbrash Join Date: Oct 2016 Posts: 405	Hey Mr. Plump Kibbles...I would like one of those 3D valve tools too! You should sell those to us Chinariders...I'll have one in carbon-fiber...lol!
	1

09-03-2021, 07:31 PM	#45
FunkyChina Join Date: Sep 2018 Location: Iowa Posts: 34	Thanks everyone. I took it to a local mechanic who was willing to take a look at it. He's had it for almost a month and has finally said there is a valve was not operating correctly and that there was no compression at all. He is going to replace the head, piston and jug (I have no idea what a jug is). At this rate, by the time I get this fixed, riding season will be over :(
	0