Chinese VINs aren't the problem

MJSfoto1956 · 05-07-2017, 05:14 PM

So I just purchased a Chinese JiaJue scooter from Powersportsmax.com and asked them to forward me the VIN prior to its arrival (it is currently in shipment across the country). On attempting to plug the VIN into Progressive Insurance's online website the VIN was not recognized. Hmmm... Next I attempted to see what NHTSA would say about the VIN. Using their online tool @ https://vpic.nhtsa.dot.gov/decoder/Decoder. Using that tool I got a partial decode but throwing an error code 5: "VIN has errors in a few positions". I then searched for and dowloaded the official NHTSA manufacturer's code application @ ftp://ftp.nhtsa.dot.gov/MfrMail/ORG10475.pdf which explains the meaning of all the codes used by this particular manufacturer when creating their VINs. Studying this document I am able to ascertain that my bike's VIN has no errors at all -- everything is as it should be. This is in spite of the online database's claim of a "bad VIN". How could this be? So I wrote to NHTSA pointing out to them that their database is not up to date with the data being given to them by the Chinese manufacturers. We will see how they respond (if at all).

I think there are many possible explanations for the official NHTSA database being out-of-sync: Congress cutting their funding, laziness/incompetence, and quite possibly political pressure to keep these Chinese scooter manufacturers in limbo. I will let you know how it goes when I attempt to register here in Massachusetts, but I am planning on bringing all the above data with me to convince them that the federal NHTSA database that they are using to verify scooter VINs is in error. Will keep you posted on my progress.

culcune · 05-07-2017, 05:38 PM

If you dig through these Excel sheets from the EPA, you can see that Jiajue is on the list.

I see them on the 2015, 2016 and 2017 list as being certified as 'on-highway' motorcycles. These lists should be tied into the databases.

https://www.epa.gov/compliance-and-f...es-and-engines

culcune · 05-07-2017, 05:54 PM

Okay, from the epa lists, they do have a sample VIN you can take and plug into the nhtsa decoder. I have tried this with other brands, and they will post a bike's brand and confirm it, but will state there is an error. Scroll down a bit

Here is a sample VIN from Jiajue from the 2015 list. When I plugged it into the decoder, and put 2015 as the model year, it states there are some errors, but scrolling down it does give the manufacturer and shows it is a motorcycle and shows a drawing of a scooter. Here is the VIN I got from the lists I posted LLPTGKDA8C1A16771 This is a 2015 150cc scooter

Here is sample VIN for a 2017 Jiajue 50cc LLPVGBNA4E1H00002

Here are two sample VINs from the 2017 list for 150cc LLPTGKBC0G1A20002 and LLPTGKDA8C1A16771

MJSfoto1956 · 05-07-2017, 06:07 PM

the problem is that it returns any error at all. Both Progressive Insurance and my RMV would state the same, in effect saying "we can't trust your VIN as being real". So while it is nice that NHTSA returns "some" correct data, the key is for it to return 100% correct data off the VIN with no errors. Alas, the NHTSA data as is will not support that. It is this I believe that is the key issue people have with Chinese VINs. The knee jerk reaction to date has been "it must be the Chinese trying the cheat the system". It now appears to be much worse than that: the Feds have missing data and all the states and insurers are beholden to it.

culcune · 05-07-2017, 06:29 PM

It does seem hit or miss with these bikes. However, the VINs are essentially 'sample' VINs; plug this into the decoder RKRSG30Y1FA000001 and change the year to 2017. It comes up with 'errors' as well and it is a Yamaha scooter.

MJSfoto1956 · 05-07-2017, 07:19 PM

um, that makes no sense at all: the VIN you gave is for a 2015 model. Take out the deliberately false "2017" and the error goes away. Not sure what your point is. There is no "hit or miss". The NHTSA data for Yamaha's is sound. The NHTSA data for some years of JiaJue scooter's is flawed.

culcune · 05-08-2017, 12:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJSfoto1956

um, that makes no sense at all: the VIN you gave is for a 2015 model. Not sure what your point is. There is no "hit or miss". The NHTSA data for Yamaha's is sound. The NHTSA data for JiaJue's is flawed.

There is hit or miss--the two 2017 Jiajue 150s VINs I provided ( LLPTGKBC0G1A20002 and LLPTGKDA8C1A16771) came up sound, like the Yamaha's VIN. The 2017 jiajue 50s VIN I provided (LLPVGBNA4E1H00002) had some vagueness to it, but the NHTSA site stated that it corrected where it thought there was an error and the brand came up clean as well. Hence my 'hit or miss' comment. The NHTSA site also states to put in a model year, so for all three VINs above, I manually put in 2017 and all worked; the 50cc which the NHTSA site stated that it corrected ended up working. Keep in mind that if a model does not change, the certificates are only renewed and not started from scratch. There are bikes that have been in production for years, so that might add to the confusion for the VINs as they are sample VINs according the the EPA site. My suggestion since you don't seem too pleased with my findings is to go through the EPA certification EXCEL sheets from the link I provided and figure it out yourself.

MJSfoto1956 · 05-08-2017, 11:49 AM

Interesting observation -- the 2016 JiaJue VINs are indeed fine. Only 2015 VINs and earlier are an issue. This is particularly odd given that the data provided to the NHTSA was for 2015 and later models (mostly to account for battery-powered scooters). Sadly, mine is a 2015 (even though it was sold "new" to me). I'll post how it goes.

M

MJSfoto1956 · 05-09-2017, 04:49 PM

Hi Michael,

Our team is currently looking into this issue to fix the coding issues [for your scooter]. We also want to make sure we have all of the correct information from the manufacturer so we will reach out to you as soon as possible with the resolution.

Best Regards,

Britney
NHTSA Manufacturer Helpdesk

MJSfoto1956 · 05-10-2017, 11:20 AM

So I checked the online VIN decoder today and my VIN now only has but one error. Seems that writing to NHTSA works. FYI: if you want to see what data NHTSA is using for your bike, type one of the following into Google:

site:https://vpic.nhtsa.dot.gov jiajue
site:ftp://ftp.nhtsa.dot.gov jiajue

where "jiajue" would be the manufacturer (i.e. manufacturer associated with the WMI as per the VIN) of your bike. If nothing is returned in the search then that suggests that NHTSA has no data on your brand. Likewise, if anything is returned, check the docs and read the information there. Good stuff sometimes.

M

MJSfoto1956 · 05-16-2017, 02:33 PM

Michael,

Thanks for bringing that up again, we overlooked the document and completely missed the additional pages “beginning with Model Year 2015.” I will code the information accordingly so that this VIN issue is resolved!

Best Regards,

Britney
NHTSA Manufacturer Helpdesk

From: <me>
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2017 10:33 AM
To: manufacturerinfo
Subject: RE: trouble with Chinese scooter VIN

Dear Brittany,

Thanks again for the quick response! Quick question for you: The original link I provided (ftp://ftp.nhtsa.dot.gov/MfrMail/ORG10475.pdf) reveals a document hosted by NHTSA that has handwritten notation regarding 2014 & 2015 Jiajue VINs. Is this perhaps the origin of the missing data? (i.e. they combined VIN data for multiple years in a single document?)

Thanks!

Michael

Mada123 · 05-19-2017, 01:45 PM

I plugged in the vin from my 2016 Bashan brozz, and it came up with "Error code:0" which seems like what you want to get. I'm going to try and register it in Massachusetts Monday, We'll see how it goes.

Edit: It worked flawlessly!

05-07-2017, 05:14 PM	#1
MJSfoto1956 Join Date: Apr 2017 Posts: 21	Chinese VINs aren't the problem So I just purchased a Chinese JiaJue scooter from Powersportsmax.com and asked them to forward me the VIN prior to its arrival (it is currently in shipment across the country). On attempting to plug the VIN into Progressive Insurance's online website the VIN was not recognized. Hmmm... Next I attempted to see what NHTSA would say about the VIN. Using their online tool @ https://vpic.nhtsa.dot.gov/decoder/Decoder. Using that tool I got a partial decode but throwing an error code 5: "VIN has errors in a few positions". I then searched for and dowloaded the official NHTSA manufacturer's code application @ ftp://ftp.nhtsa.dot.gov/MfrMail/ORG10475.pdf which explains the meaning of all the codes used by this particular manufacturer when creating their VINs. Studying this document I am able to ascertain that my bike's VIN has no errors at all -- everything is as it should be. This is in spite of the online database's claim of a "bad VIN". How could this be? So I wrote to NHTSA pointing out to them that their database is not up to date with the data being given to them by the Chinese manufacturers. We will see how they respond (if at all). I think there are many possible explanations for the official NHTSA database being out-of-sync: Congress cutting their funding, laziness/incompetence, and quite possibly political pressure to keep these Chinese scooter manufacturers in limbo. I will let you know how it goes when I attempt to register here in Massachusetts, but I am planning on bringing all the above data with me to convince them that the federal NHTSA database that they are using to verify scooter VINs is in error. Will keep you posted on my progress. Last edited by MJSfoto1956; 05-17-2017 at 09:27 AM.
	0

05-07-2017, 05:38 PM	#2
culcune Join Date: May 2006 Location: Yuma, Arizona Posts: 9,056	If you dig through these Excel sheets from the EPA, you can see that Jiajue is on the list. I see them on the 2015, 2016 and 2017 list as being certified as 'on-highway' motorcycles. These lists should be tied into the databases. https://www.epa.gov/compliance-and-f...es-and-engines __________________ "They say that life's a carousel, spinning fast you got to ride it well..." TGB Delivery Scooter 150 TMEC 200 Enduro--carcass is sadly rotting in the backyard
	1

05-07-2017, 05:54 PM	#3
culcune Join Date: May 2006 Location: Yuma, Arizona Posts: 9,056	Okay, from the epa lists, they do have a sample VIN you can take and plug into the nhtsa decoder. I have tried this with other brands, and they will post a bike's brand and confirm it, but will state there is an error. Scroll down a bit Here is a sample VIN from Jiajue from the 2015 list. When I plugged it into the decoder, and put 2015 as the model year, it states there are some errors, but scrolling down it does give the manufacturer and shows it is a motorcycle and shows a drawing of a scooter. Here is the VIN I got from the lists I posted LLPTGKDA8C1A16771 This is a 2015 150cc scooter Here is sample VIN for a 2017 Jiajue 50cc LLPVGBNA4E1H00002 Here are two sample VINs from the 2017 list for 150cc LLPTGKBC0G1A20002 and LLPTGKDA8C1A16771 __________________ "They say that life's a carousel, spinning fast you got to ride it well..." TGB Delivery Scooter 150 TMEC 200 Enduro--carcass is sadly rotting in the backyard
	0

05-07-2017, 06:07 PM	#4
MJSfoto1956 Join Date: Apr 2017 Posts: 21	the problem is that it returns any error at all. Both Progressive Insurance and my RMV would state the same, in effect saying "we can't trust your VIN as being real". So while it is nice that NHTSA returns "some" correct data, the key is for it to return 100% correct data off the VIN with no errors. Alas, the NHTSA data as is will not support that. It is this I believe that is the key issue people have with Chinese VINs. The knee jerk reaction to date has been "it must be the Chinese trying the cheat the system". It now appears to be much worse than that: the Feds have missing data and all the states and insurers are beholden to it. Last edited by MJSfoto1956; 05-17-2017 at 09:27 AM.
	0

05-07-2017, 06:29 PM	#5
culcune Join Date: May 2006 Location: Yuma, Arizona Posts: 9,056	It does seem hit or miss with these bikes. However, the VINs are essentially 'sample' VINs; plug this into the decoder RKRSG30Y1FA000001 and change the year to 2017. It comes up with 'errors' as well and it is a Yamaha scooter. __________________ "They say that life's a carousel, spinning fast you got to ride it well..." TGB Delivery Scooter 150 TMEC 200 Enduro--carcass is sadly rotting in the backyard
	0

05-07-2017, 07:19 PM	#6
MJSfoto1956 Join Date: Apr 2017 Posts: 21	um, that makes no sense at all: the VIN you gave is for a 2015 model. Take out the deliberately false "2017" and the error goes away. Not sure what your point is. There is no "hit or miss". The NHTSA data for Yamaha's is sound. The NHTSA data for some years of JiaJue scooter's is flawed. Last edited by MJSfoto1956; 05-17-2017 at 09:28 AM.
	0

05-08-2017, 11:49 AM	#8
MJSfoto1956 Join Date: Apr 2017 Posts: 21	Interesting observation -- the 2016 JiaJue VINs are indeed fine. Only 2015 VINs and earlier are an issue. This is particularly odd given that the data provided to the NHTSA was for 2015 and later models (mostly to account for battery-powered scooters). Sadly, mine is a 2015 (even though it was sold "new" to me). I'll post how it goes. M
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05-09-2017, 04:49 PM	#9
MJSfoto1956 Join Date: Apr 2017 Posts: 21	response from NHTSA Hi Michael, Our team is currently looking into this issue to fix the coding issues [for your scooter]. We also want to make sure we have all of the correct information from the manufacturer so we will reach out to you as soon as possible with the resolution. Best Regards, Britney NHTSA Manufacturer Helpdesk
	2

05-10-2017, 11:20 AM	#10
MJSfoto1956 Join Date: Apr 2017 Posts: 21	Good news So I checked the online VIN decoder today and my VIN now only has but one error. Seems that writing to NHTSA works. FYI: if you want to see what data NHTSA is using for your bike, type one of the following into Google: site:https://vpic.nhtsa.dot.gov jiajue site:ftp://ftp.nhtsa.dot.gov jiajue where "jiajue" would be the manufacturer (i.e. manufacturer associated with the WMI as per the VIN) of your bike. If nothing is returned in the search then that suggests that NHTSA has no data on your brand. Likewise, if anything is returned, check the docs and read the information there. Good stuff sometimes. M Last edited by MJSfoto1956; 05-17-2017 at 09:46 AM.
	0

05-16-2017, 02:33 PM	#11
MJSfoto1956 Join Date: Apr 2017 Posts: 21	100% resolved!!! Michael, Thanks for bringing that up again, we overlooked the document and completely missed the additional pages “beginning with Model Year 2015.” I will code the information accordingly so that this VIN issue is resolved! Best Regards, Britney NHTSA Manufacturer Helpdesk From: <me> Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2017 10:33 AM To: manufacturerinfo Subject: RE: trouble with Chinese scooter VIN Dear Brittany, Thanks again for the quick response! Quick question for you: The original link I provided (ftp://ftp.nhtsa.dot.gov/MfrMail/ORG10475.pdf) reveals a document hosted by NHTSA that has handwritten notation regarding 2014 & 2015 Jiajue VINs. Is this perhaps the origin of the missing data? (i.e. they combined VIN data for multiple years in a single document?) Thanks! Michael
	0

05-19-2017, 01:45 PM	#12
Mada123 Join Date: Apr 2017 Posts: 14	I plugged in the vin from my 2016 Bashan brozz, and it came up with "Error code:0" which seems like what you want to get. I'm going to try and register it in Massachusetts Monday, We'll see how it goes. Edit: It worked flawlessly! Last edited by Mada123; 06-03-2017 at 06:33 AM.
	1