Geothermal rebuild and Green Energy Thread

thillskier · 01-31-2015, 12:32 PM

Transferred from Fly and Drive back thread.
This will cover the Geo replacement job I am doing in Birmingham, AL currently.
It also will have some Solar, Hydronic (floor) heating discussion, and the install of a proper waterheateing system for this to supplement the desuperwaterheating the Geothermal HVAC unit also produces.

This is an open discussion thread, and is intended to discuss different ways of heating and cooling your building(s) the MOST efficient way currently known to exist. It will also include the issues arising when doing a job of this type (proper disposal of contaminated water from the rupture of the old units compressor and subsequent mixing of the water mixture in the Geo water supply piping with the compressor oil in the factory SEALED compressor in the GEO unit). The freon and other nasty and carcinogenic/poisonous liquids also are in the mix as well! as the contaminated piping I'm removing.om a few improper installed issues.

1. Improper grounding (or NO grounding, of course:(.
2. The fact that ALL copper lines 1" were used exclusively, and without a break in the continuity causes electrolysis as well.. Its leaking contaminated water in many places in the home as there being NO flex joint in the copper pipe anywhere. Vibration and movement causes the pipe to work harden, eventually cracking and leaking, as it is now, in many places. A MESS for sure! Going back with 1" PEX as is spec'ed.
3. No easy way to remove air from the system.

The water needs to be drained and barrelled to a disposal facility, or run through a decontamination filtering device. The pipe heated to burn off all chemicals.(or disposed in a landfill equipped for this type waste.) Due to coppers value, it WON'T be in a landfill, too valuable, and easily recycled for reuse.

thillskier · 01-31-2015, 12:50 PM

I will (hopefully) get the camera and computer jiving, and show the process to ready the existing pumps for the new system. They are expensive, so this will save the owner some big $, as he has 5 pumps in the system, if I can do this to my satisfacton and source the parts I want to replace from somewhere. The Grundfos Distributor doesn't stock ANY parts for the small homeowner sized pumps!?! SOme can be ordered in "kits". Hmmm!, This means lots of orings etc I don't want need at VERY high prices IMHO and in my past experiences buying stuff I don't want or need in "kits".

thillskier · 01-31-2015, 02:27 PM

PN#52722377 P1
Type UP 26-116F 230V 60 Hz

This is the Grunfos recirculating pump used in many/most Geo and Foor Hydronic systems. I will dissassemble, reseal, and repair any issues with the pump. New ones are EXPENSIVE, and this guy has 5 installed

!
Hopefully this will save any china riders owning these or contemplating a system some $ down the road.

Weldangrind · 01-31-2015, 04:08 PM

What is the subfloor material over the copper pipe? Do you think copper was used because of the superior heat conductivity? PEX insulates considerably more, meaning the heat would not be as easily released.

Copper is a disaster waiting to happen in terms of electrolysis, unless you can attach some form of sacrificial anode. I can't imagine what that would look like. Was the copper at least grounded in some fashion?

Weldangrind · 01-31-2015, 04:15 PM

I'm quite new to Geotherm and heat pumps, but I'd like to learn more. Does this system also use a heat pump? Is there an auxiliary forced air furnace for very cold days? I've heard that heat pumps cannot keep up with the hottest or coldest days, but I'm not sure if geotherm is similar in that regard. Any comments?

thillskier · 01-31-2015, 04:25 PM

Oh Man,
Its UNREAl tech, and sooo much more efficient, longer lasting, etc (if done right, of course). Learn it yourself, IMHO, if intereste. Not many "techs" bother to learn correct tech, or don't bother!

Use water to heat in winter (minimum 32 if frozen above intake), and cool SUmmer probably 85 MAX. vs air at ?10 WInter, and 100 Summer. Water is a MUCH more conductive substance also. My HOME dropped from 230 a month average, to Highest ever 2500 sq ft, $67.0, and 56 a month average! 100% electric

!!
That in 1996. The units are much better now

.

We are HYDRO ROYAL dealers. They are the BEST manufacturers, use Titanium cores and SSteel cabinets, even!
Call Marcus Miller and get a catalog and info explaining the system
(888)205-7766
Tell him his dealer in ALabama sent you. Tommy Hill
The unit I'm installing now is one of his. He's got free catalogs, brochures, and maybe a video.
ENjoy

!

Mine worked well down to 2 F, not sure about colder, but SHOULD be fine unless intake froze. Deeper into water

! Heat, it hardly even gets to high speed, idles unless I'm just coming home and house is 100 degrees or something. Get the info from Mark. Do your homework, and I will answer any Q's after, OK.
HOME POWER .com magazine has a TON of great info re Geo, SOlar, microhydro, and all green energy tech. I been a 10yr subscriber!

thillskier · 01-31-2015, 04:28 PM

Do you have access to water yr round? Thats a MUST. The copper is in the water heat pump(exchanger). DUmbass move by last tech. NOT designed like that. Copper (or Titanium) inside unit for efficient exchange of cool/heat...

thillskier · 01-31-2015, 04:32 PM

Ingram Heating and Cooling
I used to be a dealer for them, still by minisplits sometimes from them.
Jason Ingram, Owner (and friend). He bought some solar systems from me. They have GREAT info online. Tutorials etc for self education even installation. Copper heat exchanger (like every other company I know about EXCEPT my new manufacturer

! Enjoy!

Weldangrind · 01-31-2015, 04:38 PM

I'm going to dive into this topic a little deeper. We live in a climate that doesn't swing that much from winter to summer (comparatively), so perhaps Geotherm is a good choice.

We rarely see temps below 32F in the winter, and rarely above 90F in the summer. In fact, a normal hot summer day is in the 80's.

thillskier · 01-31-2015, 06:14 PM

You definitely can save a LOT of $ on HVAC electrical costs there with Geo.
HOWEVER, you need to find someone WITH local experience THERE to help with sizing. Mark may have a similar climate, but I'm not sure, ask. He's is WA state.
The reason you need advice (I can't help w/o a ton of research and math) is determining the tonnage to cover, with adequite margins for exceptional weather events. Either you need to read up and do it yourself (WAAAY best method), ar trust someone YOU use. The book tons suggested are usually TWICE what is needed. Also, buy a 2 speed compressor, so you are not screwed by over buying tonnage. In my experience, tonnage has NEVER been underestimated in ANY app I inspected, EVER! They use std equations, then x2 it to make sure savings don't make them look bad vs air cooled Heat pumps, their bread and butter. They still do, though, just not as good as could be. Also, they under fill freon, causing heat, and multiple cycling of compressors and $ to do so.

01-31-2015, 12:32 PM	#1
thillskier Banned Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 223	Geothermal rebuild and Green Energy Thread Transferred from Fly and Drive back thread. This will cover the Geo replacement job I am doing in Birmingham, AL currently. It also will have some Solar, Hydronic (floor) heating discussion, and the install of a proper waterheateing system for this to supplement the desuperwaterheating the Geothermal HVAC unit also produces. This is an open discussion thread, and is intended to discuss different ways of heating and cooling your building(s) the MOST efficient way currently known to exist. It will also include the issues arising when doing a job of this type (proper disposal of contaminated water from the rupture of the old units compressor and subsequent mixing of the water mixture in the Geo water supply piping with the compressor oil in the factory SEALED compressor in the GEO unit). The freon and other nasty and carcinogenic/poisonous liquids also are in the mix as well! as the contaminated piping I'm removing.om a few improper installed issues. 1. Improper grounding (or NO grounding, of course:(. 2. The fact that ALL copper lines 1" were used exclusively, and without a break in the continuity causes electrolysis as well.. Its leaking contaminated water in many places in the home as there being NO flex joint in the copper pipe anywhere. Vibration and movement causes the pipe to work harden, eventually cracking and leaking, as it is now, in many places. A MESS for sure! Going back with 1" PEX as is spec'ed. 3. No easy way to remove air from the system. The water needs to be drained and barrelled to a disposal facility, or run through a decontamination filtering device. The pipe heated to burn off all chemicals.(or disposed in a landfill equipped for this type waste.) Due to coppers value, it WON'T be in a landfill, too valuable, and easily recycled for reuse.
	0

01-31-2015, 12:50 PM	#2
thillskier Banned Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 223	Rebuilding/Resealing/repair of Grundfos Geo pump I will (hopefully) get the camera and computer jiving, and show the process to ready the existing pumps for the new system. They are expensive, so this will save the owner some big $, as he has 5 pumps in the system, if I can do this to my satisfacton and source the parts I want to replace from somewhere. The Grundfos Distributor doesn't stock ANY parts for the small homeowner sized pumps!?! SOme can be ordered in "kits". Hmmm!, This means lots of orings etc I don't want need at VERY high prices IMHO and in my past experiences buying stuff I don't want or need in "kits".
	0

01-31-2015, 02:27 PM	#3
thillskier Banned Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 223	Pump info PN#52722377 P1 Type UP 26-116F 230V 60 Hz This is the Grunfos recirculating pump used in many/most Geo and Foor Hydronic systems. I will dissassemble, reseal, and repair any issues with the pump. New ones are EXPENSIVE, and this guy has 5 installed! Hopefully this will save any china riders owning these or contemplating a system some $ down the road.
	0

01-31-2015, 04:08 PM	#4
Weldangrind Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Sardis, BC, Canada Posts: 25,977	What is the subfloor material over the copper pipe? Do you think copper was used because of the superior heat conductivity? PEX insulates considerably more, meaning the heat would not be as easily released. Copper is a disaster waiting to happen in terms of electrolysis, unless you can attach some form of sacrificial anode. I can't imagine what that would look like. Was the copper at least grounded in some fashion? __________________ Weldangrind "I figure I'm well-prepared for coping with a bike that comes from the factory with unresolved issues and that rewards the self-reliant owner." - Buccaneer
	0

01-31-2015, 04:25 PM	#6
thillskier Banned Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 223	PM replied to, think I'll post on here for others info. Oh Man, Its UNREAl tech, and sooo much more efficient, longer lasting, etc (if done right, of course). Learn it yourself, IMHO, if intereste. Not many "techs" bother to learn correct tech, or don't bother! Use water to heat in winter (minimum 32 if frozen above intake), and cool SUmmer probably 85 MAX. vs air at ?10 WInter, and 100 Summer. Water is a MUCH more conductive substance also. My HOME dropped from 230 a month average, to Highest ever 2500 sq ft, $67.0, and 56 a month average! 100% electric!! That in 1996. The units are much better now. We are HYDRO ROYAL dealers. They are the BEST manufacturers, use Titanium cores and SSteel cabinets, even! Call Marcus Miller and get a catalog and info explaining the system (888)205-7766 Tell him his dealer in ALabama sent you. Tommy Hill The unit I'm installing now is one of his. He's got free catalogs, brochures, and maybe a video. ENjoy! Mine worked well down to 2 F, not sure about colder, but SHOULD be fine unless intake froze. Deeper into water! Heat, it hardly even gets to high speed, idles unless I'm just coming home and house is 100 degrees or something. Get the info from Mark. Do your homework, and I will answer any Q's after, OK. HOME POWER .com magazine has a TON of great info re Geo, SOlar, microhydro, and all green energy tech. I been a 10yr subscriber!
	0

01-31-2015, 04:15 PM	#5
Weldangrind Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Sardis, BC, Canada Posts: 25,977	I'm quite new to Geotherm and heat pumps, but I'd like to learn more. Does this system also use a heat pump? Is there an auxiliary forced air furnace for very cold days? I've heard that heat pumps cannot keep up with the hottest or coldest days, but I'm not sure if geotherm is similar in that regard. Any comments? __________________ Weldangrind "I figure I'm well-prepared for coping with a bike that comes from the factory with unresolved issues and that rewards the self-reliant owner." - Buccaneer
	0

01-31-2015, 04:28 PM	#7
thillskier Banned Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 223	Water is key Do you have access to water yr round? Thats a MUST. The copper is in the water heat pump(exchanger). DUmbass move by last tech. NOT designed like that. Copper (or Titanium) inside unit for efficient exchange of cool/heat...
	0

01-31-2015, 04:32 PM	#8
thillskier Banned Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 223	Good info site and they RETAIL HVAC to individuals! Ingram Heating and Cooling I used to be a dealer for them, still by minisplits sometimes from them. Jason Ingram, Owner (and friend). He bought some solar systems from me. They have GREAT info online. Tutorials etc for self education even installation. Copper heat exchanger (like every other company I know about EXCEPT my new manufacturer! Enjoy!
	0

01-31-2015, 04:38 PM	#9
Weldangrind Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Sardis, BC, Canada Posts: 25,977	I'm going to dive into this topic a little deeper. We live in a climate that doesn't swing that much from winter to summer (comparatively), so perhaps Geotherm is a good choice. We rarely see temps below 32F in the winter, and rarely above 90F in the summer. In fact, a normal hot summer day is in the 80's. __________________ Weldangrind "I figure I'm well-prepared for coping with a bike that comes from the factory with unresolved issues and that rewards the self-reliant owner." - Buccaneer
	0

01-31-2015, 06:14 PM	#10
thillskier Banned Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 223	Sounds Like HEAVEN! You definitely can save a LOT of $ on HVAC electrical costs there with Geo. HOWEVER, you need to find someone WITH local experience THERE to help with sizing. Mark may have a similar climate, but I'm not sure, ask. He's is WA state. The reason you need advice (I can't help w/o a ton of research and math) is determining the tonnage to cover, with adequite margins for exceptional weather events. Either you need to read up and do it yourself (WAAAY best method), ar trust someone YOU use. The book tons suggested are usually TWICE what is needed. Also, buy a 2 speed compressor, so you are not screwed by over buying tonnage. In my experience, tonnage has NEVER been underestimated in ANY app I inspected, EVER! They use std equations, then x2 it to make sure savings don't make them look bad vs air cooled Heat pumps, their bread and butter. They still do, though, just not as good as could be. Also, they under fill freon, causing heat, and multiple cycling of compressors and $ to do so.
	0