Tuning the RX4's Fuel Injection - Page 7

Lukas · 08-20-2022, 08:54 PM

If you read the article carefully, you will understand that reducing the AFR, that is, enriching the mixture is only adding fuel, not air, because you don't am supercharging, so you cool the engine and as a result you will lose power sooner, because power comes from temperature and tuning is to advance the ignition timing at high revs, so that you don't get knock combustion, but because accelerating the ignition causes an increase in temperature, because the mixture burns more you have to add AFR to make the fuel cool the combustion chamber.

Bob Kelly · 08-20-2022, 10:28 PM

yep your right ! so the Only reason my bike preforms better now is because it was so starved for fuel before ! in "THEORY" it should and probably would preform worse
but it doesn't seem that way to me !....but my bike will last longer be cooler and eat more gas now.....
....
increasing the AIR would probably improve things a little and indeed make more power
as I noticed the volume efficiency is down a long way unless I give it alot of throttle
...but I am not making a race bike, I just want it to run smoothly is all
...
Bob...

Lukas · 08-21-2022, 08:48 AM

That's why I asked the Italian for the injection map, because he has experience from the dynamometer and more or less knows how much to change the ignition timing.

Mark your oil level and check to see if it's getting thin.

Lukas · 08-21-2022, 10:10 AM

Bob I did a little research on this site download a PDF file in place of "Tuner pro tutorials.

https://oldskulltraining.com/pages/how-to-use-tunerpro

"We have created written and video support to help you use the software Tuner pro.

Here you can find, a quick guide.".

I have read and it comes out that this is where the ignition would need to be pulled up I need to compare my original map and the 2 tuning maps and I will know a little more.

But that's where the HOD ECU HACKER comes in.

Bob Kelly · 08-21-2022, 06:21 PM

Have you noticed that the numbers in the chart are not consistent ? they should be
as they reflect a mechanical device that does not change therefore the curve the spark takes should be a perfect exponential curve.... and the 35.00 in the chart that precedes a lower number is all wrong.... that is not a smooth transition mechanical things don't do that... electronics will, but mechanics won't so go in there and change the number to reflect a smoother change. (make it a few tenths of a degree more than the previous number)
I still say, you don't need to mess with the spark ! leave it alone and you'll be fine
although I will check mine now to see if there is any inconsisities like yours shows ...because that is not right..... someone screwed up ! yes you can do that if there is a need at 5500 RPM to change the spark and then change it back at 6000 rpm...but there should not be a need to do that at all.... that is just sloppy programing !
they copied and pasted the chart and then checked to see if it was right and someone missed that ..... I found several instances in my ECU where that same error had occurred, the ECU is filled with errors if you look closely at it ! like a super high idle when it is well below freezing.... when the engine is cold like that the last thing you want to do is rev it up to close to 3 grand ! you want it to go slow till it warms up not rev up real high ! they did that so it wouldn't die after you start it and it's cold but your shooting yourself in the foot doing that ! Revving it up like that before the oil pressure has gotten up is really hard on the engine.
.....
I don't know, putting your faith in a company that you know nothing about doesn't sound wise to me..... they SHOULD know what their doing ...but what if they don't ?
and there are more companies that are Bad out there than there are good ones !
so your chances of finding a good one .... arn't the best in the world !
.... when I contacted them they said they had no maps for the RX4 and we have no experience with it..... that tells me to stay away and if they do modify a map for the RX4 they will take their experience from other bikes they have more experience with
which SHOULD be fine..... but it is not that same model and that scares me !!!!
I know enough about the internal combustion engine to know that each one is different
it is a big mistake to group them all together and say if it's good for this one it's good for that one too....... I am guilty of this myself, but I also look for signs that it doesn't like it ! and a mechanical contrivance will tell you if it likes it or not you just have to know what to look for .
....
the spark curve should be a nice slow curve to the target full advance number
the curve is an exponential curve now days not a parabola as in the days of old.
it's real hard to do a exponential curve mechanically so when they came out with electronic ignition they immediately changed that and it was a good thing, the engines gained more power at top end because of that !
Now days the ECU contains everything electronic ignition and the injector timing as well as a bunch of other things that are technically useless to the running of the engine but they have the space in there so they added it... like carbon canister purge timing
and down to the nat's ass fuel air ratio at almost every possible RPM ! it really is amazing what they have pulled off..... but they did it in a big hurry ... and it Must be fine tuned to be right !
.....
Bob......

Lukas · 08-21-2022, 07:19 PM

Bob, this is an example of where the spark setting is located look in the top left corner it is SG400.
This is an image from my map sorry if I led you into the wrong.

Lukas · 08-21-2022, 07:40 PM

Bob and an important lesson from me don't judge something or someone based on "because it seems to me" you didn't buy the map from them and you can't judge if they are doing right or wrong and the fact that they wrote you that they have no experience with the rx4 is a sign of honesty, because they could have written that there is no problem and do the same as with any other engines I bought I paid and I'm satisfied I still have the second more powerful version and in days I'll upload it and check it, because I didn't have time after changing the cylinder.

Bob Kelly · 08-22-2022, 12:14 PM

Very true I agree ! .....you never know though and that is the problem.... although it seemed to work very well for you !
....
thanks for that chart because it does NOT look like that on my bike at all
in fact I discovered that When I held the RPM at 5500 RPM and was Making a Run file for future reference , my bike slowed down and speed up 4 or 5 times while the throttle was held steady..... not good at all so I started looking for the problem and it lead me right to spark so you may well be correct here that same table in my bike is all screwed up , instead of being a smoothed transition like that chart you showed , Mine has anomalies of up to 50 and 51 degrees advance in it ! Why in gods name would they put that in it ? the peeks correlated exactly with the slowdown of RPM on the graph ...it way too far advanced now..... and yet I didn't change that.... that spark chart is original! yet there is a big section in the middle of extremely high spark advance and the 3D view of the chart looks like a train wreck !
.... I am almost to the point of putting the original ECU copy back in it and calling it all a learning experience !
if I don't do that , I will have to change the spark map chart to be reasonable and not so screwed up....
.... I cannot even guess why they put that in the chart to begin with it should look like the one you posted above.... but it certainly does not and that is NOT good for the engine .....
(so leaving it stock is not the answer either ! )
.... I dunno..... it's totally weird ! there is no reason for the spark to go above 42deg in full advance yet Max spark advance is set to 60....... that makes no sense !
....
....
Thanks Lukas !
Bob......

Lukas · 08-22-2022, 02:39 PM

The first photo is a sg400 map I don't know maybe it's a two-cylinder?

The map of the ignition advance angle is made under the exhaust standards, so it looks like the setting of the ignition advance angle, so that the engine has a lot of power and at the same time cooling it with fuel causes underfiring of the mixture and higher emissions you could get around this by using a real catalytic converter, but it is an additional production cost the option of depleting the mixture and shifting the ignition angle is a cheaper alternative.

Bob Kelly · 08-24-2022, 01:22 AM

Yah ! I suspect that they did that for emitions too.
So far I've gone through the spark section and discovered that the spark is a combination of 3 sensor readings, the one on the crank is constant and linked to the RPM, but the other 2 are big variables
one of the Expected intake pressure and the other the RPM and a huge addition of Additional add on's in certain instances. they add a small amount to the spark advance.
....
Sense the spark is going way too far advanced i started replacing every value in the charts that was over 42 with 42 as I believe there is no reason to go beyond 42 degrees advance .....this got rid of the calls for 50+ degrees advance in the chart
and I set the Max advance to 43 instead of 70 .....
....
I haven't put this into the bike yet and probably won't for some time as I am still tinkering with it...... something just doesn't feel right about this and I can't put my finger on it.....
If they did this for emissions , I could care less about emissions ! I just want the engine to run right, and it looks like I am getting further away from that goal as I go along..... the changing of RPM with the throttle still at 4500RPM is definitely not right
it never did that before. it's something I did that isn't getting along with other stuff in there....
....
Bob......

Bob Kelly · 08-24-2022, 04:54 AM

I chickened out ! I went ahead and put it back to the stock setting, all except the idle speed..... I had it working on 13.625 : 1 instead of the stock 14.625 : 1 AFR
but if I was going to leave it there I would have to figure out why they did the spark so screwy and I didn't feel right about that so rather than tempt fate on a brand new bike
I just put it back to stock LOL..... I accomplished most of what I set out to do in the first place...so that's good enough.... it looks like I could play with that for years and never get it all figured out... so I elected to just leave it alone for now and try to get some miles on it instead.
this winter I'll probably tackle the spark again and keep building up my patch to where it's finally right.... but I guess only time will tell !
....maybe by then those guys will get an RX4 file I can buy HAHAHAH !
....
thanks for the great Help Lukas ! I really appreciate it !
catch'a later !
Bob.....

outboardr · 10-31-2023, 03:56 PM

HUD ECU Hacker version 5.1 is now available, so fyi to all.
https://netcult.ch/elmue/hud ecu hacker/HUD ECU Hacker version 5.1 is now available, so fyi to all.
https://netcult.ch/elmue/hud%20ecu%20hacker/

**JerryHawk250** · 10-31-2023, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outboardr

HUD ECU Hacker version 5.1 is now available, so fyi to all.
https://netcult.ch/elmue/hud ecu hacker/HUD ECU Hacker version 5.1 is now available, so fyi to all.
https://netcult.ch/elmue/hud%20ecu%20hacker/

Cool. I see it still doesn't support tuning for Lifan. I'm sure they will eventually.

08-20-2022, 10:28 PM	#92
Bob Kelly Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Weed, California. Posts: 271	yep your right ! so the Only reason my bike preforms better now is because it was so starved for fuel before ! in "THEORY" it should and probably would preform worse but it doesn't seem that way to me !....but my bike will last longer be cooler and eat more gas now..... .... increasing the AIR would probably improve things a little and indeed make more power as I noticed the volume efficiency is down a long way unless I give it alot of throttle ...but I am not making a race bike, I just want it to run smoothly is all ... Bob... __________________ It's too late when you've gone too far !
	0

08-21-2022, 06:21 PM	#95
Bob Kelly Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Weed, California. Posts: 271	Have you noticed that the numbers in the chart are not consistent ? they should be as they reflect a mechanical device that does not change therefore the curve the spark takes should be a perfect exponential curve.... and the 35.00 in the chart that precedes a lower number is all wrong.... that is not a smooth transition mechanical things don't do that... electronics will, but mechanics won't so go in there and change the number to reflect a smoother change. (make it a few tenths of a degree more than the previous number) I still say, you don't need to mess with the spark ! leave it alone and you'll be fine although I will check mine now to see if there is any inconsisities like yours shows ...because that is not right..... someone screwed up ! yes you can do that if there is a need at 5500 RPM to change the spark and then change it back at 6000 rpm...but there should not be a need to do that at all.... that is just sloppy programing ! they copied and pasted the chart and then checked to see if it was right and someone missed that ..... I found several instances in my ECU where that same error had occurred, the ECU is filled with errors if you look closely at it ! like a super high idle when it is well below freezing.... when the engine is cold like that the last thing you want to do is rev it up to close to 3 grand ! you want it to go slow till it warms up not rev up real high ! they did that so it wouldn't die after you start it and it's cold but your shooting yourself in the foot doing that ! Revving it up like that before the oil pressure has gotten up is really hard on the engine. ..... I don't know, putting your faith in a company that you know nothing about doesn't sound wise to me..... they SHOULD know what their doing ...but what if they don't ? and there are more companies that are Bad out there than there are good ones ! so your chances of finding a good one .... arn't the best in the world ! .... when I contacted them they said they had no maps for the RX4 and we have no experience with it..... that tells me to stay away and if they do modify a map for the RX4 they will take their experience from other bikes they have more experience with which SHOULD be fine..... but it is not that same model and that scares me !!!! I know enough about the internal combustion engine to know that each one is different it is a big mistake to group them all together and say if it's good for this one it's good for that one too....... I am guilty of this myself, but I also look for signs that it doesn't like it ! and a mechanical contrivance will tell you if it likes it or not you just have to know what to look for . .... the spark curve should be a nice slow curve to the target full advance number the curve is an exponential curve now days not a parabola as in the days of old. it's real hard to do a exponential curve mechanically so when they came out with electronic ignition they immediately changed that and it was a good thing, the engines gained more power at top end because of that ! Now days the ECU contains everything electronic ignition and the injector timing as well as a bunch of other things that are technically useless to the running of the engine but they have the space in there so they added it... like carbon canister purge timing and down to the nat's ass fuel air ratio at almost every possible RPM ! it really is amazing what they have pulled off..... but they did it in a big hurry ... and it Must be fine tuned to be right ! ..... Bob...... __________________ It's too late when you've gone too far !
	0

08-22-2022, 12:14 PM	#98
Bob Kelly Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Weed, California. Posts: 271	Very true I agree ! .....you never know though and that is the problem.... although it seemed to work very well for you ! .... thanks for that chart because it does NOT look like that on my bike at all in fact I discovered that When I held the RPM at 5500 RPM and was Making a Run file for future reference , my bike slowed down and speed up 4 or 5 times while the throttle was held steady..... not good at all so I started looking for the problem and it lead me right to spark so you may well be correct here that same table in my bike is all screwed up , instead of being a smoothed transition like that chart you showed , Mine has anomalies of up to 50 and 51 degrees advance in it ! Why in gods name would they put that in it ? the peeks correlated exactly with the slowdown of RPM on the graph ...it way too far advanced now..... and yet I didn't change that.... that spark chart is original! yet there is a big section in the middle of extremely high spark advance and the 3D view of the chart looks like a train wreck ! .... I am almost to the point of putting the original ECU copy back in it and calling it all a learning experience ! if I don't do that , I will have to change the spark map chart to be reasonable and not so screwed up.... .... I cannot even guess why they put that in the chart to begin with it should look like the one you posted above.... but it certainly does not and that is NOT good for the engine ..... (so leaving it stock is not the answer either ! ) .... I dunno..... it's totally weird ! there is no reason for the spark to go above 42deg in full advance yet Max spark advance is set to 60....... that makes no sense ! .... .... Thanks Lukas ! Bob...... __________________ It's too late when you've gone too far !
	0

08-24-2022, 01:22 AM	#100
Bob Kelly Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Weed, California. Posts: 271	Yah ! I suspect that they did that for emitions too. So far I've gone through the spark section and discovered that the spark is a combination of 3 sensor readings, the one on the crank is constant and linked to the RPM, but the other 2 are big variables one of the Expected intake pressure and the other the RPM and a huge addition of Additional add on's in certain instances. they add a small amount to the spark advance. .... Sense the spark is going way too far advanced i started replacing every value in the charts that was over 42 with 42 as I believe there is no reason to go beyond 42 degrees advance .....this got rid of the calls for 50+ degrees advance in the chart and I set the Max advance to 43 instead of 70 ..... .... I haven't put this into the bike yet and probably won't for some time as I am still tinkering with it...... something just doesn't feel right about this and I can't put my finger on it..... If they did this for emissions , I could care less about emissions ! I just want the engine to run right, and it looks like I am getting further away from that goal as I go along..... the changing of RPM with the throttle still at 4500RPM is definitely not right it never did that before. it's something I did that isn't getting along with other stuff in there.... .... Bob...... __________________ It's too late when you've gone too far !
	0

08-24-2022, 04:54 AM	#101
Bob Kelly Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Weed, California. Posts: 271	I chickened out ! I went ahead and put it back to the stock setting, all except the idle speed..... I had it working on 13.625 : 1 instead of the stock 14.625 : 1 AFR but if I was going to leave it there I would have to figure out why they did the spark so screwy and I didn't feel right about that so rather than tempt fate on a brand new bike I just put it back to stock LOL..... I accomplished most of what I set out to do in the first place...so that's good enough.... it looks like I could play with that for years and never get it all figured out... so I elected to just leave it alone for now and try to get some miles on it instead. this winter I'll probably tackle the spark again and keep building up my patch to where it's finally right.... but I guess only time will tell ! ....maybe by then those guys will get an RX4 file I can buy HAHAHAH ! .... thanks for the great Help Lukas ! I really appreciate it ! catch'a later ! Bob..... __________________ It's too late when you've gone too far !
	0

08-20-2022, 08:54 PM	#91
Lukas Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: A small Polish empire Posts: 244	If you read the article carefully, you will understand that reducing the AFR, that is, enriching the mixture is only adding fuel, not air, because you don't am supercharging, so you cool the engine and as a result you will lose power sooner, because power comes from temperature and tuning is to advance the ignition timing at high revs, so that you don't get knock combustion, but because accelerating the ignition causes an increase in temperature, because the mixture burns more you have to add AFR to make the fuel cool the combustion chamber.
	0

08-21-2022, 08:48 AM	#93
Lukas Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: A small Polish empire Posts: 244	That's why I asked the Italian for the injection map, because he has experience from the dynamometer and more or less knows how much to change the ignition timing. Mark your oil level and check to see if it's getting thin.
	0

08-21-2022, 07:40 PM	#97
Lukas Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: A small Polish empire Posts: 244	Bob and an important lesson from me don't judge something or someone based on "because it seems to me" you didn't buy the map from them and you can't judge if they are doing right or wrong and the fact that they wrote you that they have no experience with the rx4 is a sign of honesty, because they could have written that there is no problem and do the same as with any other engines I bought I paid and I'm satisfied I still have the second more powerful version and in days I'll upload it and check it, because I didn't have time after changing the cylinder.
	0

08-22-2022, 02:39 PM	#99
Lukas Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: A small Polish empire Posts: 244	The first photo is a sg400 map I don't know maybe it's a two-cylinder? The map of the ignition advance angle is made under the exhaust standards, so it looks like the setting of the ignition advance angle, so that the engine has a lot of power and at the same time cooling it with fuel causes underfiring of the mixture and higher emissions you could get around this by using a real catalytic converter, but it is an additional production cost the option of depleting the mixture and shifting the ignition angle is a cheaper alternative.
	0

10-31-2023, 03:56 PM	#102
outboardr Join Date: Jan 2022 Posts: 44	HUD ECU Hacker version 5.1 is now available, so fyi to all. https://netcult.ch/elmue/hud ecu hacker/HUD ECU Hacker version 5.1 is now available, so fyi to all. https://netcult.ch/elmue/hud%20ecu%20hacker/
	1