Hawk Talk

[Ariel Red Hunter]

Originally Posted by fredweb

The flash point for vaseline is around 200deg F. certainly low enough to be ignited by friction from a poorly lubed bearing. putting vaseline on a cow is a lot different than using it for a bearing grease. My point was that the grease used is less important than application and use provided that the grease actually stays on the bearing surfaces and prevents friction heat. anyone that uses vaseline for bearing grease is asking for trouble. I've only been a mechanical engineer for 25 years but what the hell do i know. go ahead and use vaseline. They will sell you all the bearings you want i suppose.

Hmmm. The flash point I found for Vaseline is stated at 182 degrees Centigrade to 221 degrees Centigrade.

[fredweb]

Originally Posted by Ariel Red Hunter

Hmmm. The flash point I found for Vaseline is stated at 182 degrees Centigrade to 221 degrees Centigrade.

You are correct. I F'd when i shouda C'd thats still around 400 F and thats still within practical range for a metal on metal friction. First theres smoke. THen theres fire. but way way way before that you have damaged bearings and maybe even a broken neck.

[Ariel Red Hunter]

Originally Posted by fredweb

You are correct. I F'd when i shouda C'd thats still around 400 F and thats still within practical range for a metal on metal friction. First theres smoke. THen theres fire. but way way way before that you have damaged bearings and maybe even a broken neck.

I sure don't reccomend anyone riding a Hawk, or any other consumer use motorcycle using Valveline for wheel bearing grease, But we did use the stuff on the wheel bearings of a BSA Gold Star flat tracker. And I never saw smoke or blued bearings or any other problems with that bike. Flat track racing is usually over short distances. Usually less than 50 miles at average speeds of around 100 mph. You go through 5 mile heats, If you finish in the top 3, you automatically transferred to the main event, which was usually a 20 lap, 10 mile final. The problem was not usually too thin a grease, it was a problem of not running long enough to heat the grease to a semi-liquid state. That's why we used Vaseline.

[fredweb]

So i have been reading the thread and you all are going about this all wrong. I have a hawk that will push 75 indicated with stock gearing. This is because i have the carb, valves, and spark balanced for the highest rpm possible. To do this you cant rely on jet kits. You have to start with a small jet and drill it out(by hand) a little at a time until you get the proper mix within the capability of the mixture screw to compensate. This will also result in a much smoother running engine even at high rpm. If you get your mixture right you should see a header temp of about 600-800 F Ideal is about 750 F. too hot and your lean. Too cold and your rich. Now that this is after setting the correct valve clearance and this might take a few tries because the tolerances the chinese are used to aren't awesome.

Once you get this done correctly you can start thinking about gearing. Doing and gear change before this will be counterproductive as you wont have maximum power to work with. This too may be trial and error as it can depend greatly on your riding style. If you gear it so high that it barely runs in 5th you will generate unnecessary heat and can do engine damage. Not to mention burn out the clutch. I would recommend working up to a point where you can drive ok in fifth and still slow 20mph and pick it back up in 5-7 seconds. Any higher and you risk engine damage. the chain will create some resistance but really the difference between o-ring and not is probably moot. If you are seeing a noticable difference here at all its probably because you have too tall gearing anyway so back it off. and make sure your chain is adjusted properly, use the appropriate oil viscosity for your area/air temp.

Thats about all you can do without moding the engine. Increasing the compression ration will pay off more than anything but you cant just deck the head or you will bend valves and all sorts of other nasty stuff. A good aftermarket wont help on these bikes as they have too low hp already and the factory pipe is basically free flow already. Changing the air filter to a better/ less restrictive may help get air through the motor but do this before valve and jetting or you will have to start over.

That's pretty much it short of adding fuel injection and / or a turbocharger. This is almost a fools errand because it will cost you a grand and at that point you could sell the hawk and take the grans and probably buy a used xl650 or something similar that would do 90+, but if you are interested there are options for this out there. Its certainly not for the novice though as you would need to splice in the electronics that control both of these. Porting and polishing your intake and exhaust ports is a waste of time. Nobody, and i mean nobody polishes a port anymore. you can open them up if they are not a match with the carb flange but leave them a bit rough as this will help the fuel mix with the air. You need a little turbulence for this to happen super smooth port walls dont facilitate this.

And for anyone who is curious i used to work for a company that builds drag racing motors so i have a little experience with getting the most out of an engine/vehicle.

[Ariel Red Hunter]

Yes, even I am a little tired of Joe Craig. But very rarely do we get to pick the brain of a man who had so much to do with the racing success of the single cylinder, air-cooled motor cycle. So, onwards and upwards: "In a naturally aspirated engine, the incoming air has imparted to it a velocity sufficiently high at the carburettor jet to raise petrol and to continue at an increasing velocity along the port until it enters the cylinder. The force mainly responsible for this velocity is the negative pressure created by the descending piston. This negative pressure occurs only for 180 degrees of crankshaft movement and at, say, 6000 rpm, precious little time is afforded to this cylinder filling period. However, because the gas column is travelling at such a high velocity, cylinder charging continues until the pressure created in the cylinder by the rising piston is equal to the pressure exerted by the gas column. In the case of the Manx engines, this pressure balance takes place some 67 1/2 degrees after bottom dead center. This ramming effect occurs as a result of high engine rpm, the shape of the valve-lift curve and the length, diameter and shape of the inlet tract. As I have mentioned, the kinetic energy of the exhaust gases helps the inlet charge provided, in the case of the Manx engine, the inlet valve is open some 60 degrees before top dead centre." It might take a little effort and time to digest all of that.

[fredweb]

Originally Posted by Ariel Red Hunter

Yes, even I am a little tired of Joe Craig. But very rarely do we get to pick the brain of a man who had so much to do with the racing success of the single cylinder, air-cooled motor cycle. So, onwards and upwards: "In a naturally aspirated engine, the incoming air has imparted to it a velocity sufficiently high at the carburettor jet to raise petrol and to continue at an increasing velocity along the port until it enters the cylinder. The force mainly responsible for this velocity is the negative pressure created by the descending piston. This negative pressure occurs only for 180 degrees of crankshaft movement and at, say, 6000 rpm, precious little time is afforded to this cylinder filling period. However, because the gas column is travelling at such a high velocity, cylinder charging continues until the pressure created in the cylinder by the rising piston is equal to the pressure exerted by the gas column. In the case of the Manx engines, this pressure balance takes place some 67 1/2 degrees after bottom dead center. This ramming effect occurs as a result of high engine rpm, the shape of the valve-lift curve and the length, diameter and shape of the inlet tract. As I have mentioned, the kinetic energy of the exhaust gases helps the inlet charge provided, in the case of the Manx engine, the inlet valve is open some 60 degrees before top dead centre." It might take a little effort and time to digest all of that.

While this is all relatively accurate, it has f*#k all to do with actually setting up a bike for maximum power/torque curves to achieve optimal performance. Every forum i have ever been on has had some know-it-all jackwagon like you that is always threatened by anyone else having an opinion. The main difference between you and I is that I don't really care if anyone reads the post I wrote or follows any of the instructions. To be honest those recommendations are only jumping off points as it all takes a bit of experimentation to get things just right. I was trying to be helpful. The post you provided was meant solely to confuse and baffle. I don't know if your just that insecure that you have to constantly be the center of attention here but i'll let you have it. You can fumble f*#k around til the end of time for all i care. Good luck with that.

[Republic]

Originally Posted by fredweb

So i have been reading the thread and you all are going about this all wrong. I have a hawk that will push 75 indicated with stock gearing.

What rpm's are you running at at 75 with stock gearing?

[Ariel Red Hunter]

Originally Posted by fredweb

While this is all relatively accurate, it has f*#k all to do with actually setting up a bike for maximum power/torque curves to achieve optimal performance. Every forum i have ever been on has had some know-it-all jackwagon like you that is always threatened by anyone else having an opinion. The main difference between you and I is that I don't really care if anyone reads the post I wrote or follows any of the instructions. To be honest those recommendations are only jumping off points as it all takes a bit of experimentation to get things just right. I was trying to be helpful. The post you provided was meant solely to confuse and baffle. I don't know if your just that insecure that you have to constantly be the center of attention here but i'll let you have it. You can fumble f*#k around til the end of time for all i care. Good luck with that.

Well, thank you ever so much for your kind comments.

[Bruce's]

Story time is getting a little out of hand .

[pete]

Originally Posted by Ariel Red Hunter

I sure don't reccomend anyone riding a Hawk, or any other consumer use motorcycle using Valveline for wheel bearing grease, But we did use the stuff on the wheel bearings of a BSA Gold Star flat tracker. And I never saw smoke or blued bearings or any other problems with that bike. Flat track racing is usually over short distances. Usually less than 50 miles at average speeds of around 100 mph. You go through 5 mile heats, If you finish in the top 3, you automatically transferred to the main event, which was usually a 20 lap, 10 mile final. The problem was not usually too thin a grease, it was a problem of not running long enough to heat the grease to a semi-liquid state. That's why we used Vaseline.

Pretty sure Ivan never used vaseline as a wheel bearing grease...
He only done 4 laps per race...

I think any gain would be more in the head than on the track...



...

[fredweb]

Originally Posted by Republic

What rpm's are you running at at 75 with stock gearing?

I'm not sure as i don't have a tach. I can assure you its wound out tighter than frog pussy though. Its got to be the absolute limit for that engine. at this point gearing is the only way up, but i have enough power and torque to go up. I bet if i get it right i can bury the stock speedo.

[Ariel Red Hunter]

Originally Posted by pete

Pretty sure Ivan never used vaseline as a wheel bearing grease...
He only done 4 laps per race...

I think any gain would be more in the head than on the track...



...

Pete, there were more or less 21 Gold Stars, all dynoed on the same dyno (C. R. Axtell's) and all of them hunting first place money. You will be amused, perhaps, to know that one of our real hot shoe riders, "Slidin'" Al Gunter, threw a tarp over his bike when he worked on it in the pits. "Why the tarp, Al", I once asked him "The baby needs new shoes, and none of you S.O'B.'s are going to get any free speed secrets off of me." Desperate men do desperate deeds.

[pete]

ARH you need to put a few warrings in your posts....
not everyone is as all knowing as you.... there could be people that know no better and could try vaseline in there wheel bearings...

This is a CB form not a flat track one... your thread here is headed "HAWK TALK"

DO NOT put Vaseline in your wheel bearing...
it will resalt in the wheel bearings seizeing.. you doing a face plant...

bearings require a proper lubcant to work... They need friction
to make the balls or rollers roll with out friction they skid in the races
the heat from that could seize the bearing.. And the bearings
will be toast in a very short time..

VASELINE IS NOT A SUITABLE LUBCANT FOR BEARING...




...

[Ariel Red Hunter]

Originally Posted by pete

ARH you need to put a few warrings in your posts....
not everyone is as all knowing as you.... there could be people that know no better and could try vaseline in there wheel bearings...

This is a CB form not a flat track one... your thread here is headed "HAWK TALK"

DO NOT put Vaseline in your wheel bearing...
it will resalt in the wheel bearings seizeing.. you doing a face plant...

bearings require a proper lubcant to work... They need friction
to make the balls or rollers roll with out friction they skid in the races
the heat from that could seize the bearing.. And the bearings
will be toast in a very short time..

VASELINE IS NOT A SUITABLE LUBCANT FOR BEARING...




...

Pete, I've already warned people not to use Vaseline in their wheel bearings. I don't think anyone on here wants to go through what we went through after every race meeting. Every week we changed the engine oil (I used AeroShell 70-50), cleaned and flushed the wheel bearings, re-cut the tires, re-set valve clearances, tire pressure, and attended to any other things that need doing. Unless we had two race meeting in a week. Then we did it all twice.

[Ariel Red Hunter]

O.K., We have played (at least in our minds) with speed tuning the Hawk engine. So let's get back to reality for a moment or two. As an on/off road bike, what we need is as much low and mid range power as we can get without mortgaging 40 acres of prime Mississippi Delta bottom land to do it. If your swing arm bushings are still primo, just grease the swing arm hinge axle, just snug up the nut enough to take up the slack, left to right, and double nut it so it stays that way. That should last quite a while. Decide what kind of tires will be best for where you ride, trials type or knobbies. With trials type tires you will have to ride more standing up, not just to get the center of gravity lower, but because trials tires are more square to the road in order to get more traction or grip. You might as well get Michelin, or other, heavy duty tubes and install a security bolt at least on the rear. Then you can run low tire pressures without worrying about the valve stem getting eaten alive. Pete suggested running co2 instead of air in the tires because with co2 the tire pressure goes down when going slowly off road, but on road the build up of heat in the tire raises tire pressures. Another benefit of low tire pressures, which let the tire have a bigger footprint, is it lets the tire throw mud better. And, at least in the Eastern United States, You will be happier if you have fine tuned your carburetor to have instant response right from idle to wide open. I'd also set the idle speed as low as it can go, and still pull the bike on level ground without having to gas it up. No, not from a dead stop, but engine idleing in first gear after you've gotten it moving. If it wants to go too fast in low gear when on downhills, shift up to second gear and turn off the ignition with those ever so handy little red buttons on the right (starboard) handle bar. As you roll out on the bottom, turn the ignition back on, and select the gear you feel comfortable with. The less brake you use, the less often you get to test your helmet. I think that spending more time standing in the rough stuff will make the rear suspension work better, to the point where you don't need to change the shock. I, personally want an exhaust system just loud enough to be able to hear it with a helmet on. Much more useful than a tachometer off road. Your ears will very quickly learn to tell you when the rpm is too low, or too high.