2008 Kawasaki KLR456 Diesel Motorcycle Project

[katoranger]

I am sure the trans could be done. Not sure if the intent is to have an "auto" trans or not either.

Allen

[FastDoc]

Would this be nuts? :roll:

Hydraulic drive. Pump on the craankshaft, motor in the hub of the rear wheel. No tranny or jackshaft.

[Reveeen]

Would this be nuts?

Yes and no. We are only talking 10hp, hydraulics have a fixed rate of frictional losses, the losses remain the same if you put 10hp through the system, or 50hp, the current "standard" for such a system seems to be around 25hp. Hydraulics are, well, difficult/expensive to control in a linear fashion, as in controlling volume/pressure in a controlled acceleration mode, say with a hand type throttle. I'm not saying it can't be done, but you are stepping away from current mainstream hydraulic controls (mass produced/cheap) into specialty items (expensive). Might as well throw in a whopping big high pressure accumulator, a smaller diesel engine, and electronics to start/stop the engine as pressure/volume is required.

I *think* the simplest way is the best way.

[FastDoc]

Originally Posted by Reveeen

Would this be nuts?

Yes and no. We are only talking 10hp, hydraulics have a fixed rate of frictional losses, the losses remain the same if you put 10hp through the system, or 50hp, the current "standard" for such a system seems to be around 25hp. Hydraulics are, well, difficult/expensive to control in a linear fashion, as in controlling volume/pressure in a controlled acceleration mode, say with a hand type throttle. I'm not saying it can't be done, but you are stepping away from current mainstream hydraulic controls (mass produced/cheap) into specialty items (expensive). Might as well throw in a whopping big high pressure accumulator, a smaller diesel engine, and electronics to start/stop the engine as pressure/volume is required.

I *think* the simplest way is the best way.

Good information! I did not know any of that!

I was just thinking of my hydraulic lawn mower...

[SamM]

Wow, you guys have put a lot of thought into this. I've gone over ALL the options and the simple solution is a CVT. Simple and lightweight! The centrifugal clutch looks promising on the outside. If the math pans out, it may be a solution.

1). The hydraulic drive is too heavy and much to complex for this type of motorcycle. It's been done with smaller 2WD motorcycles using gasoline engine. This bike is more like a 2 wheeled tractor with a 25mph topspeed. The drive will not produce enough speed to make the motorcycle fast enough for street use, unless a much larger platform is used.

2). The KLR650 does not provide enough room for a separate transmission. It's a great idea but there is just not enough room for it. The one possibility would be the Harley Ultima transmission but it would need to be installed on it's side to work. Standing the transmission on it's side may or may not work. Proper oiling would be the issue. I'm not willing to spend over $1600 to find out. My engine has both a pull start and an electric starting system.

3). Taper grinding the crankshaft is also not an option. I'm not willing to do this! My engine has already been purchased and is here. The engine has a 1" straight shaft w/keyway. The solution needs to fit my engine. The 3/4" jackshaft, bearing, sprockets, etc.. have also been purchased. My engine makes 13hp and almost 30ft/lbs of torque. I've looked at other engines. The VW isn't even close to being small enough to fit. Most of the other engines: Kubota, Kohler, Briggs & Stratton are much too larger for what I have in mind. The power to weight ratio of these engines compared to what I have doesn't make any sense. I have looked at them all!

4). Diesel/Electric is something that would be keen to try. I have a hub mounted electric motor that would work. It's unfortunately a DC motor and requires a 10kW genset and costs $1300. Packaging and weight problems would be the end result and would negate any performance gain. The engine, batteries, controller, genset and hub motor are all heavy components. My KTM 950 Adv minus the stock engine with a sidecar frame would be a better platform for something like that.

Keep it coming all good ideas. Comet going out of business really messed me up! Something will turn up!

SamM

[SamM]

The hydraulic system is very promising. Just not for this motorcycle. The frictional losses in this type of drive are very low. Something on the order of 3 to 5%. Meaning they run almost friction free. There is actually a new motorcycle on the market with a fluid drive. The Honda DN-01 has a fluid drive system. Honda uses the fluid driven motor to drive the final drive on the DN-01. It's very small but uses a much more powerful gasoline V-twin engine to power the system. We will see more of these systems in the future! :wink:

SamM

[FastDoc]

Originally Posted by SamM

The hydraulic system is very promising. Just not for this motorcycle. The frictional losses in this type of drive are very low. Something on the order of 3 to 5%. Meaning they run almost friction free. There is actually a new motorcycle on the market with a fluid drive. The Honda DN-01 has a fluid drive system. Honda uses the fluid driven motor to drive the final drive on the DN-01. It's very small but uses a much more powerful gasoline V-twin engine to power the system. We will see more of these systems in the future! :wink:

SamM

Hey! Maybe I'm not as dumb as I thought! 8)

[waynev]

Well if it makes you feel better we run centrifugal clutches on these cars that i used to build, 440cc and 570cc 2 stroke sled engine on a poor little centrifugal clutch, usually only the bushing wears out and is replaced a few times a year. The only other part that sucks is your stuck with one gear ratio.

[SamM]

Someone posted a link to GoKartSupply.com earlier and asked if I had checked with them. I did and they have been sold out of the Comet Series 500 CVT for quite sometime now. Today, I decided to make a followup call to them to see if they were working on a replacement for the 500. Awesome news! Just got off the phone with Chet at GoKartSupply.com. They are having the Comet Series 500 duplicated in Taiwan right now. As Chet explained it, there is no one to sue them over it now. The first prototypes are about 8 weeks out and should arrive then for testing. Once any problems are cleared up, I will be buying a new CVT from them. The new Taiwanese 500 CVT will be much cheaper than the Comet version which was almost $650. Quality will be the same. It's made from stamping steel and cast aluminum. It's hard to mess that up. The Driven pulley on the 500 is much bigger than a normal Driven pulley. This requires the final drive and brake caliper to be reversed from their stock locations. I have that problem worked out. With the right combination of parts the 500 offered a 81:1 overdrive ratio. The new CVT will be the same.

My reason for wanting to use a CVT transmission in the Diesel KLR is cost and simplicity. The side benefit is that it will make the bike operate automatically. My intent isn't to build an automatic motorcycle. My intent is to build a diesel powered motorcycle. Just to clear that up!

Thanks for all the interesting discussion. Keep it up. I will post updates as I can!

SamM

[waynev]

Originally Posted by SamM

Someone posted a link to GoKartSupply.com earlier and asked if I had checked with them. I did and they have been sold out of the Comet Series 500 CVT for quite sometime now. Today, I decided to make a followup call to them to see if they were working on a replacement for the 500. Awesome news! Just got off the phone with Chet at GoKartSupply.com. They are having the Comet Series 500 duplicated in Taiwan right now.
SamM

Glad to hear your back on track, i posted that link, i can see why they will be copied, the comet clutches have worked great for all these years, but i can see why comet has gone down, my 3 arctic cat snowmobiles had comet clutches on them, for quite awhile now arctic cat makes their own clutches, not sure on the other big 3 but i think the snowmobile market used to be huge for comet, and with the manufacturers making their own now comet was bound to go down sooner or later.

[SamM]

Hoffco/Comet got caught in a classic blunder. They failed to see the writing on the wall and diversify. When their last big client John Deere decided to buy their CVTs from China, Hoffco/Comet was left without a chair when the music stopped. It's sad to hear about. Thankfully, their products will be copied now. Sadly, they can't do anything about it!

In today's ecomony, we hear more and more stories like this everyday. Briggs & Stratton is another one. The company moved manufacturing to China. Someday, we will hopefully see manufacturing swing back our way. As Chinese workers demand more pay to fuel their desire for a more Western lifestyle and as fossil fuel costs go up. It will cost too much to bring Chinese products into the US. That's going to take some time though. I fear the next casualties will be the US automakers. The Chinese are poised to take over the US car market. In a few years, we will witness it first hand.

SamM

[Reveeen]

Originally Posted by SamM

Someday, we will hopefully see manufacturing swing back our way. SamM

Sadly I disagree with you on this one. At some point, when all the decent jobs have gone offshore, and our system crashes, because anyone working is stuck in a service industry low paying job, the Chinese will stop doing business with us, because our money, if we have any, will be worth nothing. Then, and only then, will manufacturing start up, I just hope that by that time we haven't lost the skills, and technology, to manufacture.

The part of this that burns me is: Hoffco/Comet CVT worth $650, cheap copy manufactured in China probably for under $50, I wonder how much you will have to pay for the thing?

(when I go to a store and look at a pair of Chinese made shoes costing over $100 I know in the back of my mind that someone somewhere likely paid $5 for them)

[SamM]

The part of this that burns me is: Hoffco/Comet CVT worth $650, cheap copy manufactured in China probably for under $50, I wonder how much you will have to pay for the thing?

Well, the copy will be made in Taiwan R.O.C. which isn't exactly the same country as P.R.C. (China). In fact, it's a different country and an island. Taiwan is a disputed territory of the P.R.C. and a US ally. It's not likely to cost $50. That's very low. I'd say it's going to be more than half the cost of the Comet, probably much more than half.

What I might consider is buying a used Comet Series 500 CVT. Now that spare parts will be available from GoKartSupply.com. Any parts that I would need in the future could be purchased from them. My real concern was the availability of spare parts, if I did find a Comet 500. That's no longer an issue.

One thing is certain. Anytime greed is involved the outcome will not be good. That's for sure! What's happening is that all of these companies are moving offshore to increase their profits. The cost of the foreign sourced product does not go down though. Only the profits increase. Pure GREED! This is a direct result of our countries move into a post-Christian society.

SamM

[SamM]

Since we are on the subject. Here's what burns me. What is with these auto manufacturers building and trying to sell us nothing but SUVs and trucks that cost $40,000? Who buys these things? I see them going up and down the road all day. Where do these people work that they can afford vehicles that cost upwards of $40,000? I have a great job and an above average income. My wife is an accountant that also does very well. Together we make a lot of money and our homes are paid for. We are just not willing to spend $700 to $800 a month on a vehicle. When are they going to make something affordable that I'll buy? :roll:

SamM

[waynev]

Originally Posted by SamM

Where do these people work that they can afford vehicles that cost upwards of $40,000?
SamM

Probably at a bank, they get all the big bonuses.