2008 Kawasaki KLR456 Diesel Motorcycle Project - Page 5

Weldangrind · 01-02-2010, 02:10 AM

Yeah Sam, where ya been?

FastDoc · 01-18-2010, 07:44 PM

We're needing an update on this very interesting project!

SamM · 02-01-2010, 11:18 PM

I'm sorry that I haven't posted an update in awhile. I recently ran into a bit of a brickwall. My CVT supplier has become a victum of the bad economy. Hoffco/Comet has declared Chapter 11 and have closed their doors. Their biggest and best customer John Deere bailed on them and drove the last nail into their coffin. My plan was to buy a Series 500 beltdriven CVT from Hoffco/Comet to power the bike. What it boils down to now, is that I am without a final drive system to power the bike. I am being forced to look for a new drive for the motorcycle. I've been considering a centrifugal clutch but I'm not sure if it will work or not. Several units that appear to have what I need have been found but there is quite a bit of math and other considerations to workout before I can purchase the correct clutch. Sprocket sizes, drive ratios, possible topspeeds, etc... need to be worked out first. Other CVT manufacturers are being looked at in the hope that something similar to the Comet Series 500 can be found. It doesn't look good though.

A few things on the project have moved forward. I now have a KLR600 aluminum subframe and seat for the bike. This will lighten the motorcycle. The purchase of a new on the market Trail Tech X2 dualsport headlight is also pending. A 3/4" jackshaft, bearings and sprockets needed to power the rear wheel have also been purchased and are ready to go. I haven't finished the frame yet, because I need to have the drive system worked out first.

Lately, I have been considering using the stock forks from my 2008 KLR650 donor on the diesel. They are much lighter than the KX450F forks that I had planned on using. In the bottom picture you will notice the stock '08 KLR forks, the new SW-Motech centerstand for the diesel KLR, the reversed brake and sprocket locations and the wheels for the project. There is still much to do and much to figure out.

The lack of a drive system will probably slow the build quite a bit now.

SamM

Weldangrind · 02-02-2010, 02:36 AM

Hey Sam! Welcome back.

Bummer about Comet, although they're no the only game in town. Try researching the jr.dragster industry and see if that leads you to something that will handle the weight and torque you have in mind. I know that Shockwave makes really good stuff, and they're very tuneble.

Short of that, could you adapt a snowmobile centrifugal clutch setup?

BTW, if you went with a simple centrifugal clutch, you wouldn't need a jackshaft or reversed rear wheel. Not sure what kind of power / speed the bike would be capable of though.

Have you tried eBay for the CVT? I found a good used one once.

waynev · 02-02-2010, 06:18 AM

Have you tried here? http://www.gokartsupply.com/500ser.htm

SamM · 02-02-2010, 06:23 AM

Hey Weldandgrind,
I'm hesitant to buy a used or out of production CVT. Parts may not be available later on. The jackshaft is a must have for my build as the engine is much wider than the rear axle. The shaft and clutch won't line up with the final drive. A jackshaft must be used to get power the rear wheel.

Thanks for the tip on Shockwave. I'll check them out.

SamM

katoranger · 02-02-2010, 08:30 AM

I think the snowmobile parts may not work well. Designed for much higher RPM use. This diesel will only hit about 4K tops. The comet clutch was probably perfect.

Not sure if the snowmobile clutched could be tuned for lower rpm engagement.

How about parts from a GY6 scooter drive? Just a thought there.

Allen

Reveeen · 02-02-2010, 09:21 AM

How about parts from a GY6 scooter drive?

I would have to say too light, not horsepower wise, torque wise. Biggest shaft in a GY6 set-up is 17mm, many smaller.

katoranger · 02-02-2010, 09:22 AM

Probably right Reveen. The diesel torque might be too much for those parts.

Snowmobile clutches could handle the power, but not sure if they can be tuned to operates are lower rpms.

Allen

Reveeen · 02-02-2010, 09:40 AM

Snowmobile stuff, that Ive seen, works on a morse taper/keyway type of hook-up, expensive to replicate on a 1" crankshaft end. (and hard to say how deep the hardening goes in the crank end, you could grind a taper on the crank and be left with a very soft steel stub)

I have no idea what is in the newer 4 stroke snow machines. (maybe someone will pass by and tell us)

Separate gearbox? (Harley, Triumph, BSA, you get the idea)
The Royal Enfield diesels use a similar engine mated to a Royal Enfield gearbox, so there is an "off the shelf system", however expensive? (these guys were converting gas RE's to diesels http://www.f2motorcycles.ltd.uk/ they appear to have stopped, but an E-Mail might not go wrong)

There is a guy in Europe (Germany?) stuffing VW diesel engines into bikes, seems to me that he has a choice gearbox he separates from an engine (by machining). You would have to google search it (it escapes me now).

A VW diesel can be mated to an early rear wheel drive Audi gearbox.

A Thermo King Diesel is a copy of a early 60's Mercedes diesel, meaning that a Mercedes gearbox can be found to fit.

Hydraulic drive? (a John Deer variable displacement hydraulic pump comes to mind)

That's it for my knowledge of small diesels and stuff.

Weldangrind · 02-02-2010, 10:42 AM

I like the idea of a separate gearbox, although it would require custom gearing to suit a diesel. As an example, a VW diesel engine is geared much differently than a gas counterpart, despite nearly identical cases.

Maybe a CVT from the side-by-side market would be workable. The Husqvarna all-wheel-drive, diesel-powered HUV4421 uses a CVT with a 20hp Kubota engine.

katoranger · 02-02-2010, 11:40 AM

I thought of a separate gearbox too. I have never owned a snowmobile, wasn't aware of have the clutches mounted. Only ridden a few of them.

The side by side market is probably the closest fit. Problem is that most were probably made by Comet.

Allen

Reveeen · 02-02-2010, 01:27 PM

Here is "the poop" on a Royal Enfield conversion: (and the way I would lean if I already owned an engine)

http://www.altmann.haan.de/riding_on_salad_oil/

Of course the only separate is going to be antique British (Burman), or Harley. The Harley uses a bottom mount, has provision for a starter, and up to 6 speeds.

katoranger · 02-02-2010, 03:49 PM

The separate trans would be a good option if there is enough room for it.

Reveeen · 02-02-2010, 04:20 PM

if there is enough room for it

Well, I *guess* if you want a transmission you make room?

I *see* the Comet part of the business has been purchased, so something should be surfacing shortly, but for $326 for a driver, and $300 for a take-up, + a belt, pillow blocks, jack shaft and a sprocket, either way isn't cheap!

01-02-2010, 02:10 AM	#61
Weldangrind Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Sardis, BC, Canada Posts: 25,977	Yeah Sam, where ya been? __________________ Weldangrind "I figure I'm well-prepared for coping with a bike that comes from the factory with unresolved issues and that rewards the self-reliant owner." - Buccaneer
	0

01-18-2010, 07:44 PM	#62
FastDoc Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Southeastern Washington desert Posts: 14,761	We're needing an update on this very interesting project! __________________ Happy to serve.
	0

02-01-2010, 11:18 PM	#63
SamM Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: West Virginia Posts: 1,194	Diesel KLR456 I'm sorry that I haven't posted an update in awhile. I recently ran into a bit of a brickwall. My CVT supplier has become a victum of the bad economy. Hoffco/Comet has declared Chapter 11 and have closed their doors. Their biggest and best customer John Deere bailed on them and drove the last nail into their coffin. My plan was to buy a Series 500 beltdriven CVT from Hoffco/Comet to power the bike. What it boils down to now, is that I am without a final drive system to power the bike. I am being forced to look for a new drive for the motorcycle. I've been considering a centrifugal clutch but I'm not sure if it will work or not. Several units that appear to have what I need have been found but there is quite a bit of math and other considerations to workout before I can purchase the correct clutch. Sprocket sizes, drive ratios, possible topspeeds, etc... need to be worked out first. Other CVT manufacturers are being looked at in the hope that something similar to the Comet Series 500 can be found. It doesn't look good though. A few things on the project have moved forward. I now have a KLR600 aluminum subframe and seat for the bike. This will lighten the motorcycle. The purchase of a new on the market Trail Tech X2 dualsport headlight is also pending. A 3/4" jackshaft, bearings and sprockets needed to power the rear wheel have also been purchased and are ready to go. I haven't finished the frame yet, because I need to have the drive system worked out first. Lately, I have been considering using the stock forks from my 2008 KLR650 donor on the diesel. They are much lighter than the KX450F forks that I had planned on using. In the bottom picture you will notice the stock '08 KLR forks, the new SW-Motech centerstand for the diesel KLR, the reversed brake and sprocket locations and the wheels for the project. There is still much to do and much to figure out. The lack of a drive system will probably slow the build quite a bit now. SamM __________________ 2013 Jeep Wrangler Sahara MOAB 2005 BMW E53 X5 2011 Schutt Industries LTT-HC LQG trailer 2017 Coleman CT200U 1978 Yamaha SR500E 1979 Yamaha XS650 Special II
	0

02-02-2010, 02:36 AM	#64
Weldangrind Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Sardis, BC, Canada Posts: 25,977	Hey Sam! Welcome back. Bummer about Comet, although they're no the only game in town. Try researching the jr.dragster industry and see if that leads you to something that will handle the weight and torque you have in mind. I know that Shockwave makes really good stuff, and they're very tuneble. Short of that, could you adapt a snowmobile centrifugal clutch setup? BTW, if you went with a simple centrifugal clutch, you wouldn't need a jackshaft or reversed rear wheel. Not sure what kind of power / speed the bike would be capable of though. Have you tried eBay for the CVT? I found a good used one once. __________________ Weldangrind "I figure I'm well-prepared for coping with a bike that comes from the factory with unresolved issues and that rewards the self-reliant owner." - Buccaneer
	0

02-02-2010, 06:23 AM	#66
SamM Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: West Virginia Posts: 1,194	Hey Weldandgrind, I'm hesitant to buy a used or out of production CVT. Parts may not be available later on. The jackshaft is a must have for my build as the engine is much wider than the rear axle. The shaft and clutch won't line up with the final drive. A jackshaft must be used to get power the rear wheel. Thanks for the tip on Shockwave. I'll check them out. SamM __________________ 2013 Jeep Wrangler Sahara MOAB 2005 BMW E53 X5 2011 Schutt Industries LTT-HC LQG trailer 2017 Coleman CT200U 1978 Yamaha SR500E 1979 Yamaha XS650 Special II
	0

02-02-2010, 06:18 AM	#65
waynev Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: London, Ontario Posts: 1,097	Have you tried here? http://www.gokartsupply.com/500ser.htm
	0

02-02-2010, 08:30 AM	#67
katoranger Join Date: May 2007 Location: Altamont, Kansas Posts: 15,103	I think the snowmobile parts may not work well. Designed for much higher RPM use. This diesel will only hit about 4K tops. The comet clutch was probably perfect. Not sure if the snowmobile clutched could be tuned for lower rpm engagement. How about parts from a GY6 scooter drive? Just a thought there. Allen __________________ You meet the nicest people on a Honda Clone.
	0

02-02-2010, 09:21 AM	#68
Reveeen Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: orbital platform Posts: 741	How about parts from a GY6 scooter drive? I would have to say too light, not horsepower wise, torque wise. Biggest shaft in a GY6 set-up is 17mm, many smaller.
	0

02-02-2010, 09:22 AM	#69
katoranger Join Date: May 2007 Location: Altamont, Kansas Posts: 15,103	Probably right Reveen. The diesel torque might be too much for those parts. Snowmobile clutches could handle the power, but not sure if they can be tuned to operates are lower rpms. Allen __________________ You meet the nicest people on a Honda Clone.
	0

02-02-2010, 09:40 AM	#70
Reveeen Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: orbital platform Posts: 741	Snowmobile stuff, that Ive seen, works on a morse taper/keyway type of hook-up, expensive to replicate on a 1" crankshaft end. (and hard to say how deep the hardening goes in the crank end, you could grind a taper on the crank and be left with a very soft steel stub) I have no idea what is in the newer 4 stroke snow machines. (maybe someone will pass by and tell us) Separate gearbox? (Harley, Triumph, BSA, you get the idea) The Royal Enfield diesels use a similar engine mated to a Royal Enfield gearbox, so there is an "off the shelf system", however expensive? (these guys were converting gas RE's to diesels http://www.f2motorcycles.ltd.uk/ they appear to have stopped, but an E-Mail might not go wrong) There is a guy in Europe (Germany?) stuffing VW diesel engines into bikes, seems to me that he has a choice gearbox he separates from an engine (by machining). You would have to google search it (it escapes me now). A VW diesel can be mated to an early rear wheel drive Audi gearbox. A Thermo King Diesel is a copy of a early 60's Mercedes diesel, meaning that a Mercedes gearbox can be found to fit. Hydraulic drive? (a John Deer variable displacement hydraulic pump comes to mind) That's it for my knowledge of small diesels and stuff.
	0

02-02-2010, 10:42 AM	#71
Weldangrind Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Sardis, BC, Canada Posts: 25,977	I like the idea of a separate gearbox, although it would require custom gearing to suit a diesel. As an example, a VW diesel engine is geared much differently than a gas counterpart, despite nearly identical cases. Maybe a CVT from the side-by-side market would be workable. The Husqvarna all-wheel-drive, diesel-powered HUV4421 uses a CVT with a 20hp Kubota engine. __________________ Weldangrind "I figure I'm well-prepared for coping with a bike that comes from the factory with unresolved issues and that rewards the self-reliant owner." - Buccaneer
	0

02-02-2010, 11:40 AM	#72
katoranger Join Date: May 2007 Location: Altamont, Kansas Posts: 15,103	I thought of a separate gearbox too. I have never owned a snowmobile, wasn't aware of have the clutches mounted. Only ridden a few of them. The side by side market is probably the closest fit. Problem is that most were probably made by Comet. Allen __________________ You meet the nicest people on a Honda Clone.
	0

02-02-2010, 01:27 PM	#73
Reveeen Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: orbital platform Posts: 741	Here is "the poop" on a Royal Enfield conversion: (and the way I would lean if I already owned an engine) http://www.altmann.haan.de/riding_on_salad_oil/ Of course the only separate is going to be antique British (Burman), or Harley. The Harley uses a bottom mount, has provision for a starter, and up to 6 speeds.
	0

02-02-2010, 03:49 PM	#74
katoranger Join Date: May 2007 Location: Altamont, Kansas Posts: 15,103	The separate trans would be a good option if there is enough room for it. __________________ You meet the nicest people on a Honda Clone.
	0

02-02-2010, 04:20 PM	#75
Reveeen Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: orbital platform Posts: 741	if there is enough room for it Well, I guess if you want a transmission you make room? I see the Comet part of the business has been purchased, so something should be surfacing shortly, but for $326 for a driver, and $300 for a take-up, + a belt, pillow blocks, jack shaft and a sprocket, either way isn't cheap!
	0