CSC SG400's Are Finally In

[Megadan]

Originally Posted by wheelbender6

We are comparing 400s and 650s because the CSC and RE are affordable twins with retro styling?
-The Genuine G400 offers the classic looks at a lower price, but at a significantly lower cruising speed.

The G400C, while cool, not comparable. Styling wise, sure. Power/performance, features, etc. No.

Originally Posted by 2LZ

Since we are comparing, what about seat height?

After watching the CSC video provided earlier in the thread, Mrs. 2LZ was very interested in the SG400 simply because a guy with a 30" inseam can flat-foot it. Even with the lowering doo-dad on her RX3 and the forks sucked up in the trees, she still tip-toes it.

The SG650 has a 30.3" seat height vs a 31.6" height on the RE. I think the bigger difference isn't going to really be the extra inch or so of seat height, but the width of the SG400 being a bit narrower will help as well. I rarely have to consider seat height on a bike (I can basically flat foot a CRF450), so I don't put much thought into it. My Girlfriend can get both her toes down on the RE though, and she is 5'7 with some relatively short legs for her height.

[krat]

I have ridden a 650 Interceptor, 2020 model. I am 5'9" w30" inseam.

Besides being able to flat foot the Enfield I find the weight is positioned way down in the frame lowering the center of gravity. It does not feel like 450 pounds when you sit on it. I'm not saying riding it, due to all bikes being fairly neutral when you get those big gyroscopic wheels moving.

The RE 650 is easier to move around at zero speed and keep standing up on off camber stops than some others. It is comfortable and I am not hugging a bulbous gas tank to reach the bars.

The horsepower is about par for an air cooled engine. Compare it to the Jap air cooled offerings and it is about the same when cc ratings are taken in. Even the W800 Kawasaki only makes 47hp.

The low ratings on power are mostly due to the European and British regulations where they have a stepped power system of licensing. When one passes the age of 19 and graduates from the 125cc restriction the next step is the A2 license, a bike with no more then 47HP. Many of them are riding 650 bikes that have been detuned legally to meet the 47hp limit.

When you look at many of the A2 class offerings no matter if they are 400, 500, 650 or 800, or what brand they are, the HP rating will be 47hp so they can reach the largest market share. Many are making 2/3 what you would expect.

There are specialty shops (Hitchcocks and S&S) that deal with the RE and offer cams, mapping programs, exhausts and get 60-70 HP from the 650. With the big bore kits they can go 880cc and reach 80hp.

Plus you have a frame designed by the Harris Group and an engine designed by moonlighting Triumph engineers.

Plus they forgot to finish that china bike! They forgot to put the back half on. That's your weight difference right there!

[Megadan]

Originally Posted by krat

Plus they forgot to finish that china bike! They forgot to put the back half on. That's your weight difference right there!

I can assure you that a good portion of the weight difference is from the engine alone. That 650 engine is pretty hefty due to what is sometimes known as "Victorian Engineering" The rest is likely due to the frame and swing arm, which are pretty stout bits. Comparing the rear of the frames... there isn't that much of a difference between the bikes. The frame extends a bit further back, sure, but we are talking 10-15lbs of metal at most.

[TominMO]

The RE 650s are a modernized take on riding the old-school Triumphs and BSAs, etc., and they are great for that. They don't need more power; they are their own reason for existing. Of course back then there were also gearheads hard at work at making 'em better. All good.

[2LZ]

The RE 650 a cool throw-back bike and would be neat to have in the stable but yes, it's pretty dang gutless for the size, especially in today's (2021) standards. My 2006 650 V-Strom puts out 67hp and 44 ft/lbs of torque and it's considered antiquated these days. Sure, it's water cooled but in reality, that doesn't create horsepower, it just helps sustain horsepower once hot.

The de-tuning for overseas that krat brings up is understandable, but you would think there would be a U.S. download or version.

[Wild Dog]

Originally Posted by 2LZ

The RE 650 a cool throw-back bike and would be neat to have in the stable but yes, it's pretty dang gutless for the size, especially in today's (2021) standards. My 2006 650 V-Strom puts out 67hp and 44 ft/lbs of torque and it's considered antiquated these days. Sure, it's water cooled but in reality, that doesn't create horsepower, it just helps sustain horsepower once hot.

The de-tuning for overseas that krat brings up is understandable, but you would think there would be a U.S. download or version.

Next to other 650 it's a bit gutless, but then again not a speedsters of motorcycle.

For the price they are selling here the Interceptor you can get a CF Moto 650 which has about 62 hp and is a bit faster

But the CF Moto are all a bit detuned to meet Euro Standards.

[duck9191]

Originally Posted by 2LZ

The RE 650 a cool throw-back bike and would be neat to have in the stable but yes, it's pretty dang gutless for the size, especially in today's (2021) standards. My 2006 650 V-Strom puts out 67hp and 44 ft/lbs of torque and it's considered antiquated these days. Sure, it's water cooled but in reality, that doesn't create horsepower, it just helps sustain horsepower once hot.

The de-tuning for overseas that krat brings up is understandable, but you would think there would be a U.S. download or version.

Tell triumph this. My tiger 900 rally is limited to 93hp to meet the A2 requirements to allow it to be detuned. At 7k rpm, the throttle bodies close to 80% and it falls on its face. Can't wait for the warranty to be up, its going to be a long 2 years lol.

[SuperNoob]

I really prefer the look of the SG400 over the Royal Enfield, especially the grey one. What a sexy machine.

[Megadan]

Originally Posted by SuperNoob

I really prefer the look of the CG400 over the Royal Enfield, especially the grey one. What a sexy machine.

It definitely is a good looking machine. I like the grey too.

[Working_ZS]

Just an update for those who are interested - the bike left CSC via Roadrunner Freight on September 7th and arrived here in Ohio yesterday morning, the 12th. It's now unloaded from that trailer and tentatively scheduled for delivery tomorrow, though I suspect that may slip a day or two, depending upon their schedule versus mine. I received the Certificate of Origin and purchase invoice from CSC on Saturday the 11th, via USPS Priority Mail.

Once I have physical possession of the bike and can verify that the VIN number on the bike and CoO match, I'll run up to the BMV, pay the state sales tax, then get it titled and plated. With luck, I should be able to get you guys some performance numbers and a decent first impression of the bike this weekend, so you can decide one way or the other about buying one yourself.

I've also got a Shorai Lithium Iron battery on the way for it too, as well as a set of KOSO Apollo heated grips. Those are supposed to get here Thursday and Friday; I'm not sure when I'll get those installed, but the battery will have priority since I don't have much faith in Zongshen's wet cell suppliers. The grips can definitely wait, though.

[Working_ZS]

Originally Posted by SuperNoob

I really prefer the look of the CG400 over the Royal Enfield, especially the grey one. What a sexy machine.

What a happy coincidence - that's the color that I chose for mine. Once it gets here, I'll try to get pictures up that do the bike justice.

[SuperNoob]

Originally Posted by Working_ZS

What a happy coincidence - that's the color that I chose for mine. Once it gets here, I'll try to get pictures up that do the bike justice.

Very interested to see pics and hear your thoughts. I search YouTube at least once a week to see if any owners have posted anything but nothing has come up yet.

[franque]

A2 limits are 47hp, after that they're unlimited, so that must be something else. I'm pretty sure if the Triumph dealer puts a triumph map on it, it doesn't violate the warranty

[duck9191]

Originally Posted by franque

A2 limits are 47hp, after that they're unlimited, so that must be something else. I'm pretty sure if the Triumph dealer puts a triumph map on it, it doesn't violate the warranty

They also can't be over 94bhp when unlimited. So you can't limit a panagalie v4r and ride on an A2, guess that makes SOME sense lol. There are a few modded tunes on the net I could flash, but I only have 3k miles on it so I'm going to get some more miles first. Still fun as is, just has some stalling issues likely due to emission tuning I would like gone as well as some more power.

"Any motorcycle more powerful than 94bhp in standard manufacturers trim cannot be restricted down"

https://begin-motorcycling.co.uk/a2-...indepth-guide/

[krat]

Those regulations show up over and over in the HP figures of the entire industry. Looking at the best sellers you will see a host of 400-650 bikes listing 47hp as their output, then you jump to the 700+ area and find another group all limited to 94hp, or slightly less, output.

The EU regulations now drive most of the motorcycle industry in the western world, and the U.S. gets only the remains our limited demand can draw. Plus our motorcycle culture is completely different over here, being almost entirely recreational use That means we miss out on some of the best small cc commuter bikes made.

While we polish and port and change carbs, exhausts and CDI units on our 250cc bikes to hit 60-65 and 70 on a good day, in Europe you can walk into a dealership and purchase a water cooled 125cc Honda, Kawasaki, Suzuki, Yamaha, or even a Sinus or Lexmoto that will produce 15hp and easily do 70-80 mph with full exhaust emissions gear in pace. Those bikes are usually not even imported to the U.S. We get only 8hp Groms and Monkey Bikes.

Of course they must ride these 125cc wonders until they are 19, or I believe new riders of any age must ride the learner bikes for 1 year before going for a full license.

But there is an advantage. You do not have to have a full license to ride a 125cc bike, just a learner permit (CBT). You can renew that CBT every 2 years forever and never take the full test. That is why they have so many very good 125 bikes and scooters in Europe. More adults are riding them as lifetime users.

The A2 class of bikes is truly a place where "disposable" bikes rule. Most A2 riders will stay there for 3-5 years before taking the full test and moving to a full license. They can then de-regulate their restricted bike or go to a full license model. The Chinese are trying to develop this segment, hoping the bikes will last long enough for the 19 year olds to turn 21 and trade them off for a full size bike before they fall apart.

Compare that to my basic license course to get motorcycle endorsement on my license. I was the only person in a class of 20 riding a bike of less than 650cc and 4-5 of the "new riders" were on Harley Dynas and Road Glides. One of the Harley riders was 16.