RX3 Cooling System

[pyoungbl]

katflap, what is the part number of that thermostat housing...or a link to the page where you found it. I tried Aliexpress and no joy.

[detours]

I'm looking forward to your pics and write-up ... And of course the results.

[katflap]

Originally Posted by pyoungbl

katflap, what is the part number of that thermostat housing...or a link to the page where you found it. I tried Aliexpress and no joy.

I'm not sure about Aliexpress but here's the Taobao link

https://world.taobao.com/item/437245....tjQ4Xs#detail

spud has done a thread somewhere on ordering through the Taobaotrend.com agent.

I have used them a number of times without problems. Also you can pay via paypal.

This is as much as i could find on the CSC site

http://www.cscmotorcycles.com/product-p/z24-100.htm

[SpudRider]

Originally Posted by pyoungbl

katflap, what is the part number of that thermostat housing...or a link to the page where you found it. I tried Aliexpress and no joy.

There are many items you won't find at Aliexpress. Also, if someone does at least a cursory search at Taobao, he will discover the items he can find at Aliexpress are far more expensive than the same items at Taobao. If anyone tells you Aliexpress is as good as Taobao, he doesn't know what he is talking about. One can't believe everything he reads on the internet.

[Inroads]

Originally Posted by pyoungbl

In the name of scientific research I took the Zong out for a ride, with stops to measure the temperature of various parts of the engine and cooling system. Overall this was an hour of riding with a couple 3-4 minute breaks. I used an IR meter that has been pretty accurate in the past.



Bottom line, the engine never got hot enough to burn off fuel or moisture in the oil. Note that the measurements on the left engine cover really do not show the oil temp whereas the measurements on the right engine cover do. I'm not sure why the water pump housing was hotter than the left radiator or, the one time I measured it, the right radiator. That housing must be picking up heat from the exhaust pipe.

At Interstate speeds for about 15 minutes the gauge was showing two bars above the one for COLD, that changed to three bars as I slowed some.

My FZ-09 which I rode today maintains around 165 degrees(digital readout) rolling down the hi-way at 70 mph.
Fan cuts in at 205 degrees.
I am having a hard time believing that our engines are not getting hot enough once warmed up to burn fuel efficiently.
And it seems like a leap that it is related to unburned fuel in the crankcase.
Can't wrap my head around that one.
Then you would not see a correct burning color on my spark plug which I am seeing.
Let me know if I am missing something here.

[pyoungbl]

Hi Inroads, Your thought pattern is totally valid. Here's how I see it. The fuel/air charge hits the combustion chamber and explodes, creating heat. The explosion heat is based mainly on the F/A mix as well as the compression ratio. Those two factors don't change much. As long as you get a good explosion the plug will look good. As for all that heat...you want enough to stay around to keep everything working at 100% but not so much as to cause problems. That has always been the problem with internal combustion engines. The Wright brothers could only run their engine for a few minutes because of their cooling problems (but I digress). Our engines appear to get up to something less than 180F when measured by my crude experiment. In fact, the cylinder and head were in the 135-145F range after a romp down the Interstate for about 20 minutes (followed by less than a mile to my driveway). This tells me that the internal engine temps are no where near the 190F I'd like to see in order to burn off junk in the crankcase. I could be wrong and this would not be a first time. Still, this is the first engine that I have owned where the oil samples came back with more than 0.5% fuel in the oil. On the Zong the last reading was 3%. I am awaiting the results from my last sample.

[AdventureDad]

Originally Posted by SpudRider

There are many items you won't find at Aliexpress. Also, if someone does at least a cursory search at Taobao, he will discover the items he can find at Aliexpress are far more expensive than the same items at Taobao. If anyone tells you Aliexpress is as good as Taobao, he doesn't know what he is talking about. One can't believe everything he reads on the internet.

The caveat with Taobao is the shipping. The stuff is cheaper, but my 1 time experience ordering a cup, and "barkbusters " the price was $20, and the shipping was $25. I'll stick with ebay if if I can. Spud is correct about aliexpress is way more than taobao prices though.

[rjmorel]

Dumb question or thought about RX3 cooling ???? If we're thinking they are running to cool and want to get motor hotter to burn off the volatiles, rather then adding more gizmos to an already heavy bike, could you just take one of the radiators out of the picture and get half the cooling area to bring temps up???? Put cardboard over one radiator to test like my pappy use to do in the winter time to bring temps up?
I'm thinking the Zong engineers "engineered" it this way for a reason so it will be interesting to see what comes out of this and will mean while practice the old "if it isn't broke ,don't fix it " farmer John attidude. rj

[SpudRider]

Originally Posted by AdventureDad

The caveat with Taobao is the shipping. The stuff is cheaper, but my 1 time experience ordering a cup, and "barkbusters " the price was $20, and the shipping was $25. I'll stick with ebay if if I can. Spud is correct about aliexpress is way more than taobao prices though.

You are correct about the shipping. That's why I always place a large order, since the shipping costs are greatly reduced after the first 500 grams (1.1 pounds).

[Inroads]

Originally Posted by pyoungbl

Hi Inroads, Your thought pattern is totally valid. Here's how I see it. The fuel/air charge hits the combustion chamber and explodes, creating heat. The explosion heat is based mainly on the F/A mix as well as the compression ratio. Those two factors don't change much. As long as you get a good explosion the plug will look good. As for all that heat...you want enough to stay around to keep everything working at 100% but not so much as to cause problems. That has always been the problem with internal combustion engines. The Wright brothers could only run their engine for a few minutes because of their cooling problems (but I digress). Our engines appear to get up to something less than 180F when measured by my crude experiment. In fact, the cylinder and head were in the 135-145F range after a romp down the Interstate for about 20 minutes (followed by less than a mile to my driveway). This tells me that the internal engine temps are no where near the 190F I'd like to see in order to burn off junk in the crankcase. I could be wrong and this would not be a first time. Still, this is the first engine that I have owned where the oil samples came back with more than 0.5% fuel in the oil. On the Zong the last reading was 3%. I am awaiting the results from my last sample.

I guess my point is why would low cyl.head temp be a problem on the RX3
And not a problem on other bikes like my FZ-09.
According to CSC Joe the Zongshen engineers say 4-5% fuel in the oil is acceptable ?
Acceptable for Zongshen ? Acceptable for the industry ?

[katflap]

Originally Posted by Inroads

My FZ-09 which I rode today maintains around 165 degrees(digital readout) rolling down the hi-way at 70 mph.
Fan cuts in at 205 degrees.
I am having a hard time believing that our engines are not getting hot enough once warmed up to burn fuel efficiently.
And it seems like a leap that it is related to unburned fuel in the crankcase.
Can't wrap my head around that one.
Then you would not see a correct burning color on my spark plug which I am seeing.
Let me know if I am missing something here.

My understanding is that blow by occurs in all engines.
Worn engines = more
good condition engine = less
cold engine = more
warm engine = less

Blow by occurs on the compression stroke, prior to combustion so you will still have complete combustion its just that a small amount of fuel and air has already escaped past the piston rings before combustion takes place.

My understanding is also that how effectively an engine can get rid of these blow by contaminents and moisture in the crank case is down to engine design and oil temperature.

We can't do much about blow by or engine design but we possibly do something about the oil temperature.

though contaminents start to evaporate at a lower temperature, it is concidered by a number of sources that an oil temp of 195f is the best temperature to have and yet still keep the oil within an acceptable temperature range.

[katflap]

Originally Posted by rjmorel

Dumb question or thought about RX3 cooling ???? If we're thinking they are running to cool and want to get motor hotter to burn off the volatiles, rather then adding more gizmos to an already heavy bike,

I'm not to bothered about burning off the volatiles, I just want them out of my oil and crankcase. the idea is if you up coolant temp it has a knock on effect of increasing oil temp and possibly less blow by and better evaporation

The gizmo weight is minimal

Originally Posted by rjmorel

could you just take one of the radiators out of the picture and get half the cooling area to bring temps up????

Not a bad idea but unfortunately the fan switch is in one radiator and the filler cap in the other. Also you would be limiting your cooling capacity.

Originally Posted by rjmorel

Put cardboard over one radiator to test like my pappy use to do in the winter time to bring temps up?

Did that this last winter combined with making sure the temp hit 3 bars and all was pretty good, just looking for a more automatic way of doing it.

Originally Posted by rjmorel

"if it isn't broke ,don't fix it " . rj

Sorry, I just don't roll that way, i'm more of a . " fix it 'till it's broke " kind of guy

[katflap]

Originally Posted by Inroads

I guess my point is why would low cyl.head temp be a problem on the RX3
And not a problem on other bikes like my FZ-09.
According to CSC Joe the Zongshen engineers say 4-5% fuel in the oil is acceptable ?
Acceptable for Zongshen ? Acceptable for the industry ?

Perhaps just the different engine design


there's a pdf link, it suggest that 5% or 6% fuel dilution is max

http://www.le-international.com/pdf/...egradation.pdf

[pyoungbl]

Hi Inroads, I think that katflap and I are making much the same point: blowby is putting fuel into the crankcase. That's not saying that the engine is not burning efficiently. We can see that the sparkplug looks OK. The engines seem to run just fine. In fact, I'd tell you that this is just about the best running EFI system I have ever seen in a motorcycle. At the same time you cannot ignore the fact that fuel is somehow getting into the oil. I have an oil analysis report to prove that. Here's a third party reference on the subject:
https://www.amsoil.com/techservicesb...20Dilution.pdf

Here's a scientific paper that addresses the effects of fuel in the crankcase oil: hrcak.srce.hr/file/75680

When the viscosity of your motor oil falls below industry standards it seems logical to either figure out why and correct the problem or just change the oil more frequently. My sample fell below standards in just 675 miles. That would indicate I should change every 500 or so miles. I'm not the only one seeing this so my engine is not unique. Yes, the Zongchen engineers say that this is normal and acceptable. I recommend you read the literature and make your own decision based on facts.

[BlackBike]

Hehehe, "Sorry, I just don't roll that way, i'm more of a . " fix it 'till it's broke " kind of guy"

I'm sure Kat flap is decended from a long line of British tinkerers.