Brozz 250 - Oil Cooler Install - Page 2

XLsior · 03-09-2021, 01:33 AM

The way the screen is installed and held in place by the retention spring indicates the screen collects material inside the cone apex.

Those engineers huh...

XLsior · 03-09-2021, 01:43 AM

You seem to lack awareness of the way the oil actually flows. The reason it's oriented this way is if and when the screen fills and causes a possible blockage the spring is pushed back allowing flow...

But its all cool you be you...

Megadan · 03-09-2021, 01:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XLsior

You seem to lack awareness of the way the oil actually flows. The reason it's oriented this way is if and when the screen fills and causes a possible blockage the spring is pushed back allowing flow...

But its all cool you be you...

He's actually right. The screen cone is pointed toward the oil flow. The inlet to the screen area comes in from the transmission side o the cavity and flows into the pump from that cavity. The screen points into that chamber with the rubber O ring end sealing against the case half so it ensures total coverage of the oil within that cavity and ensuring all of the oil passed through the screen, since it is surrounded on all sides. There is no other way to position it to perform this job function since the pump inlet is against the back side of that cavity. If it was oriented the other way, nothing would be filtered.

That said, in the case of the oil coolers, the reason I stated it likely wouldn't matter as much is because the filter screen in not in the normal "factory" location, and instead located in a "canister" that is halfway down a line, so a line in and out, which means there is no way for the oil to get past the screen in that scenario because as long as the O ring end is sealed against either side of the canister the oil cannot bypass it. (the previously mentioned context that gets ignored) Not that he would care, but it's true.

XLsior · 03-09-2021, 02:18 AM

Welp, They might have had their reasons...
I think my observations make sense however so I'll be me and run mine the 'wrong' way.

If I want to catch a fish i use the inside of the net.

But i will acknowledged if the retention spring is inadequate to compensate for oil pressure and the flow of oil is all that's holding the screen to the housing then the Honda engineers had a reason.

Megadan · 03-09-2021, 02:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XLsior

But i will acknowledged if the retention spring is inadequate to compensate for oil pressure and the flow of oil is all that's holding the screen to the housing then the Honda engineers had a reason.

That spring is mainly there to ensure the rubber o ring end of the screen is pressed against the housing to ensure it is sealed. Realistically the oil flow wouldn't put that much pressure against the screen since it has such large holes and a lot of them, plus the pump inlet hole in the case is rather small compared to the area/volume of that chamber the screen is in, hence the spring being needed to seat it. The screen isn't really much of a filter more than a safeguard against metal particles and shavings over a certain size that will likely damage the pump itself, so having what you believe to be a bypass is actually detrimental.

tknj99 · 03-09-2021, 07:49 AM

I have mine currently oriented exactly as it was stock, inside the chamber the screen rounded edge is on top and the oil will be hitting the rounded edge and stop there on the outside of the screen instead of going inside the screen and being caught inside it.
When I originally installed it I had the filter on the sump line with the thought of having the oil pass inside the screen and then get caught inside it opposite to stock orientation. When I switched the lines to have the canister on the inlet side I left the canister as is.
I think its better to have the canister on the inlet line so that sediment flows down onto the screen instead of up thru it where when off gravity can make it fall back down the line. Hopefully I'm good, talk of engines blowing up is not something id care to ever experience that's for sure especially when the goal is to make the engine last longer and live a happier life

Megadan · 03-09-2021, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tknj99

Hopefully I'm good, talk of engines blowing up is not something id care to ever experience that's for sure especially when the goal is to make the engine last longer and live a happier life

The original design of the CG engine was literally intended to survive abuse in developing or poor countries where regular maintenance was rather unlikely, aka a distinct lack of oil changes. That is why the pressurized oiling system is actually quite simple, with big open passages, and the other half of the oiling system was basically splash/drain down.

All gear driven components, a single in block cam with pushrods, and the previously mentioned oiling system and its simplicity make for a rather durable engine.

I wouldn't worry that much about blowing it up, especially if you do basic oil changes at reasonable intervals.

david3921 · 03-09-2021, 04:03 PM

Dan is correct here in how the oil flows. Check out post #5 here.

http://www.chinariders.net/showthread.php?t=22590

Some seem to think (as I did until recently) that the oil is pushed through the screen. It's actually the opposite, its pulled. The small dark puddle in the middle is the sump. The oil is pulled by the pump through the screen and pushed into the rest of the engine. There are arrows that show the flow. This really shows the importance of maintaining proper oil level.

XLsior · 03-09-2021, 04:58 PM

After copping some heat and admitting fault I figured I'd offer possible upgrade alternatives to the scrag catcher...
I am not recommending this, as I do not know how robust the CG oil pump is push/pull.

But seeing that the sump fed oil coolers isolate the screen it may be possible to upgrade the actual filtering capacity.

I searched and found this as an example. 30mic high flow inline filter with a pleated mesh filtering element. I'd say it could do oil too.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32995314653.html

Liek i said i'm not recommending it, Just putting the notion out there that now with the cooler you have further aftermarket options.

david3921 · 03-09-2021, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XLsior

After copping some heat and admitting fault I figured I'd offer possible upgrade alternatives to the scrag catcher...
I am not recommending this, as I do not know how robust the CG oil pump is push/pull.

But seeing that the sump fed oil coolers isolate the screen it may be possible to upgrade the actual filtering capacity.

I searched and found this as an example. 30mic high flow inline filter with a pleated mesh filtering element. I'd say it could do oil too.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32995314653.html

Liek i said i'm not recommending it, Just putting the notion out there that now with the cooler you have further aftermarket options.

Thinking about this myself. Amazon has them also. I'm wondering if 100 micron is better suited to this application.

https://smile.amazon.com/EVIL-ENERGY...59GC4F8BK&th=1

Megadan · 03-09-2021, 07:38 PM

You could try a filter, but honestly it isn't necessary. The screen and spinner do a sufficient job for this engine. Just do an occasional oil change and call it good.

China Rider 27 · 03-09-2021, 08:08 PM

The orientation of that screen I always thought had to do with the direction of flow and ensuring as it clogged the end would remain free to allow oil flow as long as possible (clogging from the sides forward.) I have to say, I am amazed at the lack of metal particles in these engines when I change oil. I had a magnetic drain plug (see plug danger) for awhile. When it broke it had some small grey sludge attached but no real individual pieces I could tell and I don't spare the throttle. Given that, personally I would not want to restrict oil flow with more restriction caused by a filter.

XLsior · 03-09-2021, 08:17 PM

100micron is pretty safe. As Dan suggested probably not necessary, but for tinkerers and fettlers alike it's a possibility.

Could it put strain on the pump...perhaps.

Could also alleviate maintenance protocol on the spinner and reduce fine particle engine wear...perhaps

It's the same principle of using the after market oil cooler.

However. Keep It Simple Stupid should never be overlooked.

China Rider 27 · 03-09-2021, 08:29 PM

One way to find out. Do a before and after, with and without a filter. Then you could post the results for us all to know?

XLsior · 03-09-2021, 08:31 PM

Might have to get my bike running and install an oil cooler myself before I can bite that biscuit.

03-09-2021, 07:49 AM	#21
tknj99 Join Date: Oct 2020 Location: Central VA Posts: 1,303	I have mine currently oriented exactly as it was stock, inside the chamber the screen rounded edge is on top and the oil will be hitting the rounded edge and stop there on the outside of the screen instead of going inside the screen and being caught inside it. When I originally installed it I had the filter on the sump line with the thought of having the oil pass inside the screen and then get caught inside it opposite to stock orientation. When I switched the lines to have the canister on the inlet side I left the canister as is. I think its better to have the canister on the inlet line so that sediment flows down onto the screen instead of up thru it where when off gravity can make it fall back down the line. Hopefully I'm good, talk of engines blowing up is not something id care to ever experience that's for sure especially when the goal is to make the engine last longer and live a happier life __________________ 2024 Templar 250 2021 Beta 500 RRS 2018 VStrom 1000 XT Former China Bikes: Tao DBX1, Brozz 250, CSC RX4, Titan DLX, Templar X, Storm DLX 150
	0

03-09-2021, 04:03 PM	#23
david3921 Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,043	Dan is correct here in how the oil flows. Check out post #5 here. http://www.chinariders.net/showthread.php?t=22590 Some seem to think (as I did until recently) that the oil is pushed through the screen. It's actually the opposite, its pulled. The small dark puddle in the middle is the sump. The oil is pulled by the pump through the screen and pushed into the rest of the engine. There are arrows that show the flow. This really shows the importance of maintaining proper oil level. __________________ 2012 Kawasaki Versys 1984 Honda Magna V65 2016 Rhino 250 2016 Tao Tao 125D
	0

03-09-2021, 07:38 PM	#26
Megadan Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Omaha, NE Posts: 8,110	You could try a filter, but honestly it isn't necessary. The screen and spinner do a sufficient job for this engine. Just do an occasional oil change and call it good. __________________ Hawk Information and Resource guide: http://www.chinariders.net/showthread.php?t=20331 2018 Hawk 250 - Full Mod list here. http://www.chinariders.net/showpost....62&postcount=1 2024 Royal Enfield Shotgun 650 https://chinariders.net/showthread.php?t=34124
	1

03-09-2021, 01:43 AM	#17
XLsior Join Date: Aug 2020 Location: Australia Posts: 1,454	You seem to lack awareness of the way the oil actually flows. The reason it's oriented this way is if and when the screen fills and causes a possible blockage the spring is pushed back allowing flow... But its all cool you be you...
	0

03-09-2021, 02:18 AM	#19
XLsior Join Date: Aug 2020 Location: Australia Posts: 1,454	Welp, They might have had their reasons... I think my observations make sense however so I'll be me and run mine the 'wrong' way. If I want to catch a fish i use the inside of the net. But i will acknowledged if the retention spring is inadequate to compensate for oil pressure and the flow of oil is all that's holding the screen to the housing then the Honda engineers had a reason.
	0

03-09-2021, 04:58 PM	#24
XLsior Join Date: Aug 2020 Location: Australia Posts: 1,454	After copping some heat and admitting fault I figured I'd offer possible upgrade alternatives to the scrag catcher... I am not recommending this, as I do not know how robust the CG oil pump is push/pull. But seeing that the sump fed oil coolers isolate the screen it may be possible to upgrade the actual filtering capacity. I searched and found this as an example. 30mic high flow inline filter with a pleated mesh filtering element. I'd say it could do oil too. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32995314653.html Liek i said i'm not recommending it, Just putting the notion out there that now with the cooler you have further aftermarket options.
	0

03-09-2021, 08:08 PM	#27
China Rider 27 Join Date: Dec 2018 Location: PNW Posts: 984	The orientation of that screen I always thought had to do with the direction of flow and ensuring as it clogged the end would remain free to allow oil flow as long as possible (clogging from the sides forward.) I have to say, I am amazed at the lack of metal particles in these engines when I change oil. I had a magnetic drain plug (see plug danger) for awhile. When it broke it had some small grey sludge attached but no real individual pieces I could tell and I don't spare the throttle. Given that, personally I would not want to restrict oil flow with more restriction caused by a filter.
	0

03-09-2021, 08:17 PM	#28
XLsior Join Date: Aug 2020 Location: Australia Posts: 1,454	100micron is pretty safe. As Dan suggested probably not necessary, but for tinkerers and fettlers alike it's a possibility. Could it put strain on the pump...perhaps. Could also alleviate maintenance protocol on the spinner and reduce fine particle engine wear...perhaps It's the same principle of using the after market oil cooler. However. Keep It Simple Stupid should never be overlooked.
	0

03-09-2021, 08:29 PM	#29
China Rider 27 Join Date: Dec 2018 Location: PNW Posts: 984	One way to find out. Do a before and after, with and without a filter. Then you could post the results for us all to know?
	0

03-09-2021, 08:31 PM	#30
XLsior Join Date: Aug 2020 Location: Australia Posts: 1,454	Might have to get my bike running and install an oil cooler myself before I can bite that biscuit.
	0