Templar X 250

[Thumper]

Originally Posted by Okierider

Hey silly question-
I’ve lost the service manual for my 172fmm-3a and can’t remember the oil viscosity it called for.
I changed the oil and used some generic Rotella 15w-something and it shifts like garbage. Need to change it again before I ride it.

15W-40 10W-40 is OK too.

I use Shell Rotella T4 15W-40

Shifts smoothly, and it's compatible with the clutch. If it "shifts like garbage" with this oil, it will probably shift like garbage with another brand/viscosity. Maybe your clutch needs adjustment. Believe me, I am NOT the only one that uses this oil.

Others choose a motorcycle specific oil (for the clutch).

Many CG250 owners use T4. Templar 172FMM as well. 1 to 1.1 quart

[Aussie_in_MO]

Originally Posted by Thumper

15W-40 10W-40 is OK too.

I use Shell Rotella T4 15W-40

Shifts smoothly, and it's compatible with the clutch. If it "shifts like garbage" with this oil, it will shift like garbage with another brand/viscosity. Maybe your clutch needs adjustment. Believe me, I am NOT the only one that uses this oil.

Others choose a motorcycle specific oil (for the clutch).

Many CG250 owners use it. Templar 172FMM as well. 1 to 1.1 quart

Can confirm, ran Rotella T4 in my last 4 bikes without issue. Including my '07 Warrior 1700. Currently running cheaper oil in my Templar X until I hit 500mi and then I'm switching it over to T4

[GypsyR]

I've known about people using Rotella in bikes for over ten years and this is the first I've heard of anyone blaming clutch issues on it. Now if it was some other oil "like" Rotella, that indeed could be an issue.

[ProDigit]

The only ones that give clutch issues, are the oils with friction modifiers.
The semi synthetic 0W oils.
Those are the oils that are most suited for engines.
0W oils are also bad for transmissions. They give great lubrication and cooling, but they're not very good for high torque, lower speed applications like on transmissions.

Ideally the transmission has it's own 80W transmission oil, and the engine has it's 0W engine oil.
That way your oil changes will last the longest.
But for a vehicle using the same oil for both engine and transmission, 10W40 is a good intermedium.

I personally wouldn't go for anything above 15W40, like 15W50 or higher, as it robs engine power, and the oil really isn't going to get that hot, especially not if the bike is running tuned (not too lean).

I live in hot south Florida, and may need 10W40 to 15W50 in stock form, where the bike ran super lean and came with a 95 main jet. But after swapping it out to a 110 jet, the bike is noticeably cooler, and I currently run 10W30 in there. No indication on the oil going black yet.
However, my next oil change will be 10W40 again.

Just avoid anything that has "Dexos", "Dexos 2" or "synthetic blend" on them.
I'm not sure if oil marked with "high mileage", is good or bad.

The Shell Rotella T4 15W40 Diesel oil is a lot cheaper than other oils, but it's high zinc content will destroy the catalytic converter.
Not an issue if you're running aftermarket exhausts.

Additionally, zinc is an additive that causes wear. While it also strengthens the steel, it should only be at higher levels during the break in.
If you want to go the cheap route, add 50% of another 10W40 oil like Pennzoil, which has a lower Zinc content.

Additionally, 15W40 oil is considered 'high mileage' oil. Oil that's generally to be used at the end of the engine's life cycle. You'll lower efficiency for less oil loss (leaking). I would really only save 15W40 oils for when the engine shows leaks from thinner oils.

[Thumper]

Originally Posted by K'hermiit

Here is the way I did it. My first post here.
https://chinariders.net/showthread.php?t=33546

After we got my sons Templar X all set, It started blowing a fuse when you push the rear brake lever, but also the front brake lever I disconnected them both and the starter wouldn't turn of course, but I jumped it at the starter relay and it popped to life as usual (with a new 10A fuse).

User error! I discovered that I had zip tied the rear brake wire on the right side of the oil breather tube too close to the exhaust. It had melted and was shorting out on the exhaust pipe
Apparently, these wires are joined via the path to the taillight (and start button defeat safety circuit), so pulling the front brake lever also grounded out the 12V black wire, blowing the fuse.

I pulled them apart and insulated them, then zip tied it to the other side farther away from the exhaust... fixed.

But this is why I asked about the starter lockout circuit. Obviously, it was impossible to start using the starter button with this transient issue (did not always happen...the worst kind of fail!). After blowing through a few fuses, I disconnected the two brake light switches (the 2 wire connectors near the switches). It stopped blowing fuses but I had to start it by jumping the wires at the starter relay. It started easily, and instantly (we did rejet). Thisa means that ignition switch powers the CDI to running mode, and the brake light circuit only blocks the starter relay circuit.

There are two wires on the brake lights switches. The black wire gets 12V when you turn the key on (this is why it was blowing the fuse). The other wire (green) gets 12V when you hit the brakes.

***I do not understand how your brake switch defeat works. If you don't hit the brake, that green wire doesn't have 12V.

I tested the FOUR wires on the R/S connector, and none of them get 12V when you turn on the ignition (one is a ground). How does NOT hitting the brake provide power to the R/S switch after your mod? I am just not getting this

[Discoveror]

Originally Posted by Okierider

Hey silly question-
I’ve lost the service manual for my 172fmm-3a and can’t remember the oil viscosity it called for.
I changed the oil and used some generic Rotella 15w-something and it shifts like garbage. Need to change it again before I ride it.

The proper oil for motorcycle wet/oil clutches is designated JASO MA or MA2. You'll see MA or MA2 clearly highlighted on the back of motorcycle oil containers.


To save a buck, you can find JASO MA2 oil at the general store (WM) for $7.84/quart (at this writing) under their brand name "SuperTech" (blue bottle), clearly labeled "Motorcycle oil" on the bottle front.

I suspect that even our friends in Bentonville, AR, who do our REAL shopping for us, don't own a refinery? ... and that they got some refinery to put their brand name, "SuperTech" on blue bottles for them. SuperTech oil is full-synthetic (and not even black in the bottle) ! <G>

Of course, if $7.84/quart is too much, you can try molasses; but, I suspect that a full-cost accounting comparison between the savings vs. a new motorcycle engine and transmission cost may not look like much real savings? <G>

------------

Viscosity ranges and recommendations pertain to outside ambient temperatures for starting an engine - not internal engine temperatures. Since I won't risk riding in potential frostbite temperatures ... and my bike resides in the garage, always heated to at least 40* F, 20W - 50 viscosity works just fine for me.

[K'hermiit]

Originally Posted by Thumper

After we got my sons Templar X all set, It started blowing a fuse when you push the rear brake lever, but also the front brake lever I disconnected them both and the starter wouldn't turn of course, but I jumped it at the starter relay and it popped to life as usual (with a new 10A fuse).

User error! I discovered that I had zip tied the rear brake wire on the right side of the oil breather tube too close to the exhaust. It had melted and was shorting out on the exhaust pipe
Apparently, these wires are joined via the path to the taillight (and start button defeat safety circuit), so pulling the front brake lever also grounded out the 12V black wire, blowing the fuse.

I pulled them apart and insulated them, then zip tied it to the other side farther away from the exhaust... fixed.

But this is why I asked about the starter lockout circuit. Obviously, it was impossible to start using the starter button with this transient issue (did not always happen...the worst kind of fail!). After blowing through a few fuses, I disconnected the two brake light switches (the 2 wire connectors near the switches). It stopped blowing fuses but I had to start it by jumping the wires at the starter relay. It started easily, and instantly (we did rejet). Thisa means that ignition switch powers the CDI to running mode, and the brake light circuit only blocks the starter relay circuit.

There are two wires on the brake lights switches. The black wire gets 12V when you turn the key on (this is why it was blowing the fuse). The other wire (green) gets 12V when you hit the brakes.

***I do not understand how your brake switch defeat works. If you don't hit the brake, that green wire doesn't have 12V.

I tested the FOUR wires on the R/S connector, and none of them get 12V when you turn on the ignition (one is a ground). How does NOT hitting the brake provide power to the R/S switch after your mod? I am just not getting this

I'm real good at confusing people...don't feel bad.
When you checked that 4 wire connector...did you make sure the kill switch was on?
That green w/yellow stripe wire was + with my ignition and kill switch was on. I hooked it up that way to retain kill switch function.

[ProDigit]

Originally Posted by Discoveror

The proper oil for wet/oil clutches is designated MA or MA2.
Viscosity ranges pertain to outside ambient temperatures - not internal engine temperatures.

True, but halfway.
The oil W-ratings pertains to ambient temperatures, with the engine running within specified parameters.
Because the import regulations on emissions, a lot of these bikes are shipped way too lean, sacrificing engine life for meeting emissions standards on these bikes.
The oil obviously won't be affected by ambient temperatures outside the crankcase by as much as it is by the internal temperatures of the engine.

A lean running engine runs hot.
A hot running engine wears out the oil.
Avoid running lean, avoids running too hot.

If they wanted to ship these bikes out (like my Vader 150) with a 95 main jet, they should have equipped the bike with an additional oil cooler.
Switching to a 110-115 main jet resolves all overheating issues, and thus reduce engine oil wear; even at +100F ambient temperatures.

GM engineers already proven that lower viscosity oil, rated for lower ambient temperatures, can easily be ran in their vehicles (even with high ambient temperatures), offering superior lubrication and cooling compared to their higher viscosity counterparts.

That 0W30 / 10W40 engine oil chart from the Chinese bike engines, is an old 1970's-1980's chart Honda used on those engines.
Technology and science have evolved since then.

MA and MA2 oil, costs more, and didn't exist in the 1970-1980s (the time when these engines were designed).
I think a lot of people are looking for cheaper oils that still work.
1970s oil and standards were a lot lower than today's.

[Mumen Rider]

The ZS172FMM(Templar X) shares the same engine base as the 170MM-2, confirmed and the 174MN-3/ZS174MN-5 are modifications of the 170MM-2 which are water cooled. The newer Templar X frame is a copy/modified Zuum CR300 CBs, Racer X-2, BSE J7(only the older 2020 models). So your only option to direct bolt on a water-cooled engine is the NB300 ZS174MN-5.

[Vekenti]

So,

Between installing a new headlight bulb, charger for my phone wired to ignition switch, and dropping my bike pretty hard on the concrete floor I completely lost any spark. Unplugged and replugged every connector on the bike to make sure that wasn't the issue. Verified start/stop switch was working. I went ahead and ordered a new coil and cdi. If neither of those fix the issue then I have no idea what I would do after that... Anyone got any tips for me for things to check?

I read the X comes with AC cdi but I think mine has a DC unit. I ordered both types just in case. I can return the ones not used.

[Thumper]

The main fuse is a 10A 250V bullet style fuse in the little white plastic thing with red wire connected to the + post on the battery (the thick wire goes to the starter solenoid).

Is that main fuse blown?? Those are cheap. A ground fault in your new wiring have have been created.

[Vekenti]

Originally Posted by Thumper

The main fuse is a 10A 250V bullet style fuse in the little white plastic thing with red wire connected to the + post on the battery (the thick wire goes to the starter solenoid).

Is that main fuse blown?? Those are cheap. A ground fault in your new wiring have have been created.

I verified the fuse is good. The bike wouldn't turn on if the fuse was blown either, right?

Ground fault... Sounds fun trying to track that down.

My phone charger connected to bike has a voltmeter and I noticed my voltage drops from 13.5 to roughly ~9.5 by switching the engine cut switch off ( run position ) I don't notice the drop on the instrument panel battery meter but maybe that one isn't as precise.

[Thumper]

10 Amps doesn't sound like much, but yes, everything but the starter runs through that fuse!

If the fuse is blown, nothing will work/light up. The main fuse also powers the trigger lead on the starter relay/solenoid. So blown fuse will prevent the relay from triggering the starter as well. But you can bypass the solenoid by connecting the two thick wires that are connected to the solenoid (connect the battery + directly to the starter).


This is a little confusing, your statement:

"drops from 13.5 to roughly ~9.5 by switching the engine cut switch off ( run position )"

These two phrases seem opposite-

"engine cutoff switch off"
"on position" (which is ON)

Not sure which you mean.

Regardless, the voltage drop should barely change if you switch the key on and the run/stop switch is in the ON position. Maybe 0.5 volts if that much (assuming the lights are not on).

To find the large voltage draw you apparently have...
Remove the power connections that you added first, and see if the voltage still drops like that.

If removing those doesn't fix it, move onto each circuit behind the headlight. You can unplug the power on the turn signal flasher, horn, etc. One of the circuits is drawing high current. My guess is something that you added.

[Discoveror]

Originally Posted by Mumen Rider

The ZS172FMM(Templar X) shares the same engine base as the 170MM-2, confirmed and the 174MN-3/ZS174MN-5 are modifications of the 170MM-2 which are water cooled. The newer Templar X frame is a copy/modified Zuum CR300 CBs, Racer X-2, BSE J7(only the older 2020 models). So your only option to direct bolt on a water-cooled engine is the NB300 ZS174MN-5.

shift lever looks way too low, rather than shift lever bottom level with the peg. You might experience a much nicer/easier shift up, getting under the lever, by loosening the lock bolt and raising the lever a knurl or two.

[Vekenti]

Looks like my issue was the phone charger I wired into the ignition switch. I don't fully understand why, but I unwired the charger and now I have spark again. Anyone know a proper & safe way I can wire it into the ignition switch? I want it to turn on and off via the key.