11-19-2022, 09:11 AM | #1 |
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 11
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Fly wheel keys
Deleted.
Last edited by jeffrey; 01-18-2024 at 07:31 PM. |
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11-19-2022, 09:18 AM | #2 |
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 2,625
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I was thinking the same thing. Head porting, opening up the exhaust, and a 2 degree key.
I have a cylinder/piton kit on the way. All together, I think it will add 4-5 horsepower on my 5-speed ZS172FMM-3A (19hp> 24hp or so). I think a 4 degree key is extreme, and that it will cause overheating in hot weather, and the engine may behave poorly at low rpms. this may not be true, but overheating is a real danger. The head porting and exhaust work are supposed to be the most significant changes. |
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11-19-2022, 10:52 AM | #3 |
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4° key is the way to go. No problem with overheating. I was running 11:1 piston and ported head. I have a couple laying around.
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2024 Linhai 300 ATV 4x4 2023 Lifan Lycan 250 Chopper 2023 Venom Evader 2022 Lifan KPX250 2020 Kawasaki Vulcan S (Sold) 2004 Honda ST 1300 2016 Black Hawk 250 (sold) Keihin PE30 carb,125 main,38 slow.Pod filter,ported & decked head 10:1 CR,Direct Ignition Coil,15/40Sprockets,NGK DPR8EIX-9,De-Cat,Dual Oil Cooler,Digital Cluster 2016 Cazador180 XL 2014 Coolster150 JerryHawk250.com My YouTube Channel |
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11-19-2022, 12:19 PM | #5 |
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 2,625
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Advance keys are available in small increments from 1 degree up. 4 degrees is not a magic number, and it is not optimal for every engine:
https://speedwerx.com/snow-performan...ming-keys.html These are sold because they a different advance is ideal depending on other things including exhaust, head work, intake/carb. And yes, advancing the timing CAN cause overheating. This is a WELL ESTABLISHED fact known for decades relating to multicylinder engines, but also applies to single cylinder dirt bikes. And these bikes are just AIR COOLED. Depending on other factors, maybe 1.5 degrees will provide substantial increase in power WITHOUT causing kickback or overheating. It is foolish to assume that one setting is perfect or ideal for every situation. It is also well known that advancing the timing is harder on the rod and piston. https://www.visordown.com/features/w...and-resolution https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tech...g-advance.html I will use ignition advance, but no reason to jump all the way to 4 degrees. Especially if I haven't done the most useful power enhancing mods (head porting, exhaust work, matching a larger carburetor to these mods). At that point a 2 degree advance might be all that is needed. Last edited by Thumper; 11-19-2022 at 12:51 PM. |
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11-19-2022, 12:47 PM | #6 |
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Sure. Send me a PM.
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2024 Linhai 300 ATV 4x4 2023 Lifan Lycan 250 Chopper 2023 Venom Evader 2022 Lifan KPX250 2020 Kawasaki Vulcan S (Sold) 2004 Honda ST 1300 2016 Black Hawk 250 (sold) Keihin PE30 carb,125 main,38 slow.Pod filter,ported & decked head 10:1 CR,Direct Ignition Coil,15/40Sprockets,NGK DPR8EIX-9,De-Cat,Dual Oil Cooler,Digital Cluster 2016 Cazador180 XL 2014 Coolster150 JerryHawk250.com My YouTube Channel |
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11-19-2022, 01:10 PM | #7 |
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11-19-2022, 02:08 PM | #8 |
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Thumper, with the mods you are planning you will be safe with the 4° timing key. You will need to run premium fuel though. If you capabilities to add timing through tuning then that would be a better option.
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2024 Linhai 300 ATV 4x4 2023 Lifan Lycan 250 Chopper 2023 Venom Evader 2022 Lifan KPX250 2020 Kawasaki Vulcan S (Sold) 2004 Honda ST 1300 2016 Black Hawk 250 (sold) Keihin PE30 carb,125 main,38 slow.Pod filter,ported & decked head 10:1 CR,Direct Ignition Coil,15/40Sprockets,NGK DPR8EIX-9,De-Cat,Dual Oil Cooler,Digital Cluster 2016 Cazador180 XL 2014 Coolster150 JerryHawk250.com My YouTube Channel |
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11-19-2022, 02:13 PM | #9 |
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Omaha, NE
Posts: 8,100
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The timing on the CG clones is so pulled back that I have been running a 4 degree key with an adjustable aftermarket CDI that also advances the timing. I have run both with a cam and over 10:1 compression.
Never overheated. Never had a kickback. I still don't have any issues with cold starts.
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11-19-2022, 02:24 PM | #10 | |
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Quote:
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11-19-2022, 04:29 PM | #11 | |
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 2,625
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Quote:
We do see much higher horsepower output from same displacement engines from Husqvarna, KTM, Kawasaki, and even Honda (notorious for detuning in favor of reliability). So the question just how reliably can we apply these performance upgrades with Chinese clones? You (MegaDan) have applied 4 degree advance and others posting here have as well, with good results and no significant issues... We hope that engine build quality is consistent enough to withstand the timing adjustment and maintain durability. The stock CDI units are presumably retarded compared to otherwise much more aggressive CDI units in the KTM and Husqvarna bikes. So the bottom line is that you advance your clone at your own risk. I can buy a replacement engine for about $500, and less drastic rebuilds involving rod, piston, can be done as well for less money, so the risk isn't too bad |
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11-20-2022, 03:48 PM | #12 | |
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Omaha, NE
Posts: 8,100
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Quote:
Other than that unit the only other CDI that I have found to offer the best overall performance from the Hawk ironically has been the original Hawk unit. As far as the coil. In my opinion there is nothing wrong with the stock coils in terms of power other than being cheap and eventually they get weak. I replaced mine after a while with a Nibbi unit and I could tell the difference at high RPM. We aren't talking some big boost of power but a smoother stronger pull from a more stable spark. I would suggest to do the key and head porting first and run that for a while and determine if you need anything more.
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11-20-2022, 03:59 PM | #13 | |
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Omaha, NE
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Quote:
I also agree that there is the potential to reduce overall reliability. I don't think a 4 degree key on its own will harm anything. Once you start bumping the compression up and advancing the timing is where you start getting into very high cylinder pressures. I offset this a little with the larger duration cam which lowers the dynamic compression ratio a bit with the increased overlap. Before the cam my bike was pretty damn hard to kick over and my starter struggled against the compression a bit lol. After it came back down to a reasonable level. Jerry and I have both been running our Hawks for some time now with all of this work and neither of us have had an issue in regards to reliability. We also both run large oil cooler setups to help regulate the engine temps, and I know that in my case it has likely contributed to the long term reliability of my bike. I push my bike hard on the highway at high RPM for decently long periods of time pushing a large man through the air. That cooler is earning it's pay so to speak.
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