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06-06-2019, 10:13 PM | #1 | |
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Central Connecticut, USA. Zombie Free Zone
Posts: 157
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Thinking of a performance and/or Engine Upgrade...Suggestions?
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I am looking at many options because I'm not entirely sure I want to use all the power a ZS190cc engine makes in my little Vader. I have heard even the 140cc engines or the 141/146cc Big Bore Kits available for the stock 125cc engine for $150 get the bike to a top speed around 65mph probably in ideal conditions on flat ground with a rider who isn't too too heavy like I feel like I am sometimes at 205lbs,65MPH is probably the extreme limit for how fast I want to ride a clone and even then its not like I want ot go miles at 65mph on the highway---I would only probably rarely even think of going 60MPH, but I can imagine cruising at 50 to 55MPH on a state route with a speed limit of 40 to maybe 50mph although at least where I live people tend to go a minimum of 10MPH over the posted speed limit so I'm not convinced riding a Grom or Grom clone for any distance over a few miles on a 50MPH limit road would ever be a great idea without getting a 190cc engine and doing extensive mods to make the bike ride ok at 60mph and be reliable at 60mph. However, I'm still decideing whether or not I would really really want the extra low end torque, acceleration and hill climb ability the zs190cc offers vs the YX made 140cc s bad enough to go thru the extra trouble of fitting a ZS190cc vs what seems to be an easier route of swapping in a new 140cc for between $300-$400 or even the easiest option seems to be the $150 141/146cc Big Bore Kit piston and cylinder. People have said taht adding a cam and/or new race head to the 140's new engine or bbk really helps also, but I doubt I would spend the extra $250-$300 or so bucks for the head because that would bring the total cost to such a high price it wouldn't seem worth it to me for what I get out of it in terms of performance/power when I ride it, plus the added resale value considerations for if and when I ever sell the complete bike or just the engine. I'm still trying to decide what I want based on my performance needs of not wanting to go above 60-70MPH for daily cruising on flat ground, I do have some 100 to 200 foot hills near my house I climb regularly on my bike and the biggest "mountain" in town peaks at about 900-950 feet--which is roughly a 700 foot climb in elevation from the starting point at the base with a fairly steep grade--currently I do not go on that hill because my bike probably wouldnt easily climb it much above 30mph, maybe could hit 35moh and the speed limit is 40mph on it--& people around where I live have cars definitley on the nicer side so they have no problem climbing that lil mountain at 60MPH which they very commonly do and people here also go 60MPH in 40MPH zoned backroads--so I want to be ABLE to go AT LEAST 50-55MPH when cruising on straight flat surfaces just so cars won't be up my rear end if nothing else!. Most roads I travel will be 40mph speed limits or under, although the highest I would semi-regularly ride are 45mph and the highest limits I plan to ride the little clone on only Occasionally are probably 50mph roads.--not to say I wouldn't try it out on a 50-65MPH Interstate Highway once or twice IF it wasnt busy and IF I had it upgraded to be able to easily hit or exceed 70MPH If anyone has any thoughts or reccomendations on what I should get, please feel free to comment--I would appreciate any insight y'all have. I might post this elsewhere to start a new thread and maybe get more answers. What upgrades and/or engine swap should I go with based on my above needs and trying to get the most bang and resale value combined for my bucks? Consider performance but also keep in mind decent reliability is also important... BUT I would be genuinely surprised if I dont either sell this bike or have a new engine on it or both well before the 50,000 mile and 10 more years from now ownership mark. If I had my way I would definitley keep the Vader and just add to it, starting a bike collection that would eventually put Jay Leno's car & bike garages to shame! However, realistically...I actually have pretty tough money and space and time constraints, so I doubt I will EVER have more than a handful of bikes and Im currently facing the sad prospect of being forced to move into a modest apartment within the next few months after spending the last 30+ years in a decent sized 4 bedroom 2.5 bathroom house with a 2 car attached garage and a little workbench workshop in my furnace room in the basement. I will be missing all of this for sure once I'm forced out, but on the bright side it should make my life easier and responsibilities significantly less. All that being said, the original reason I started this post is because I checked out the coupon the OP Phildo mentioned and it still works! www.pitsterpro.com get the 190cc engine (listed as a 190cc GPX Moto) and type zs190 into the coupon code to bring down the price including delivery to a total of just under $641!!! What a steal!! I haven't seen it anywhere cheaper, but if anyone is reading this and knows of ANY cheaper prices on a 190cc or ANY good prices on any complete engines, big bore kits or anything for any of our China Bikes (and especially for my Gen 1 Vader!) Please share it with me personally or with the group as a New Thread or Post on an existing thread!! Thanks for reading, please remember to Ride Safe, be responsible and have fun in life!! Peace This "GPX Moto" 190cc(same as ZongShen zs190 [& I think also same as the most basic 2 valve cylinder headed Daytona 190]) engine includes: Kick Starter Gear Shifter Manifold & Gasket Coil Pack Start Relay Rectify Rubber Adaptor Wiring Harness
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"Hope for the best, Prepare for the worst, Be pleasantly surprised when the world doesn't fall down on you" "Life's too short not to enjoy it-So's my China Bike!"-Me Last edited by sirmaxwell; 06-07-2019 at 08:56 PM. |
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06-06-2019, 10:34 PM | #2 |
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Florida
Posts: 759
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The Zs190 swap is the ultimate ,and to be honest not just due to the increase in cc but
also due to the fact it is a 5 speed tranny compared to our 4 speed, that 5th gear difference is HUGE. That said, it is still 650$ which is half of what the entire bike costs and you are throwing out a brand new engine at this point .I really think you'd be surprised at just how much a aftermarket exhaust ($100) and a carb /intake/filter swap ($50) wakes these little bikes up, especially with the 17t ,once you get the carb jetted right for your use. The upside to this starting point is, you can use the carb and exhaust on the 190 if you ever decide to go up to that. Finally , Kronik Racing can point you to some chinese pit bike 140cc cylinder /piston kits that will work on these bikes, Grom kits will not fit ,they are not real expensive but yes some mechanical aptitude is definitely needed to install that kinda stuff .It's not overly hard, but it's not a bolt on carb swap, either. Again, you can use the aftermarket exhaust /carb on the 140cc so its not wasted money . And you wont find a Zs190 kit for under that 640$ price, thats a great price if you decide to go that way. All i have on mine is a carb, spinner, intake, filter and aftermarket pipe , oil cooler set up and a racing CDI unit but i am not looking for top end so my expertise is admittedly not in that , i built mine for torque to stunt with and smooth throttle response /control. ,and swapped my rear shock to an Ohlins and so forth.
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2001 Mustang GT 2004 Sportster 2018 VADER 2020 Orion RXB250L |
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06-06-2019, 10:39 PM | #3 | |
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Central Connecticut, USA. Zombie Free Zone
Posts: 157
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Quote:
Thanks for the reply--I really appreciate it as always Red Crow!. Is all the stuff you have on a 125cc or ZS190cc? I realize you aren't trying hard going for top speed but I'm just curious--What is the highest speed you have hit with your setup?
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"Hope for the best, Prepare for the worst, Be pleasantly surprised when the world doesn't fall down on you" "Life's too short not to enjoy it-So's my China Bike!"-Me |
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06-07-2019, 07:12 AM | #4 |
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Florida
Posts: 759
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My Bike is a 2018 Gen 2 Vader , I got it from Venom Motorsports., it has the stock 125cc engine in it still. I plan to "one day" do the Zs190 swap but being honest i was happy enough with the basic performance for my use after the carb/intake/filter and aftermarket exhaust swaps that i put money into new bars, risers, a 12 bar ( stunt cage for the tail) stainless brake lines , shock / suspension work etc and some stiffer clutch springs from Kronik .
My GPS verified top speed is 60-61 mph on flat ground , on 93 octane Sunoco pump gas , I weigh about 170 and am 6 feet tall. The bike has had all that emissions /air pump etc tomfoolery removed as well, they don't inspect for it here in FLA so in the trash it went lol. I'm guessing overall i have about about $800 - 1k in the bike over it's original cost but that still puts me at only about half the cost of a Grom ., about all i want to do to it now is swap out the swingarm and i will be totally happy with it ,and maybe one day when it blows up i will swap in the Zs190 ,but it's so much fun right now i don't know that i could stay off the damn thing long enough to do the 190 swap if i had one sitting here ready to go haha!
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2001 Mustang GT 2004 Sportster 2018 VADER 2020 Orion RXB250L |
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06-07-2019, 07:44 AM | #5 |
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Carrollton, GA
Posts: 1,467
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Max, it sounds like your power issue is your engine is going through fuel faster than the carb bowl can keep up. During your WOT accelerations you're using every bit of fuel of the carb can supply, and the gravity feed from the fuel tank through the tiny fuel hose just can't keep up. A larger/better carb that's properly tuned [I]may[I] help with that problem, but it could make it worse, as well. Mostly, it depends on the design of the carb and how large the float bowl is. There are a few ways to get around this issue, with the most popular being an aftermarket fuel selector that uses larger hose and fittings. It's a pretty involved mod and requires drilling the old barb out of the carb and fitting a new one. That's over the top for most people (I think it would be for me, too). The other issue could be that there's a blockage or restriction in the fuel delivery system. Look for an inline filter where the fuel supply line goes into the carb. There was one on my DR650 that I removed the very first time I had that line off. As for your suggested mods, I would recommend doing the performance upgrades mentioned below on the engine you've got now to make a nice tuned and balanced bike, and then ride that out until something major breaks. Once you have to have it apart for some reason, then look into doing a performance engine swap. That's my two cents' worth, hope it helps.
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First Rule of Aviation: -Never Pass Up The Opportunity to Pee I was struggling to get my wife's attention; I sat down on the couch and looked comfortable. That did the trick! My wife says I only have two faults. I don't listen and something else... If at first you don't succeed, try doing it the way I told you to... The Stable: 2005 Yamaha V-Star 650 - SOLD 2015 Suzuki DR 650 2015 RPS Hawk 250 - SOLD 2016 Ural Gear Up |
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06-07-2019, 09:44 PM | #6 | |
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Central Connecticut, USA. Zombie Free Zone
Posts: 157
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Quote:
I still do have that rare issue where it momentarliy loses power when under highest acceleration usually at or near WOT in the top 4th gear just before 50MPH. Today I think that issue happened in 3rd gear when revving it nearly as fast as I could up to maybe between 5000 to 6000 RPMS which is interesting because for the previous 10 miles during the same ride I had revved the bike up 1000 more RPMs in 3rd gear getting the bike up to 40mph before shifting each time with no issue until that time when I was going probably 35 mph or less in 3rd. I think a fuel issue could make sense or a clutch issue maybe or maybe a piston/cylinder issue or even what if the chain hit? I have had a lil chain slap that I want to look at, maybe get rid of the chain hitting the cover if I get rid of 18 to 1/4" of slack. I think it has nearly 3/4 to 1 inch slack now, but just by psuhing up and casually eyeballing from in front and above the side of the chain. I dunno...I really have been meaning to install the new Vm22 Mikuni clone carb and get it jetted/tuned up to see if I can accelerate faster and get to higher RPMS in 4th gear especially with my 17 t front sprocket on-- Performance engine swap? ehhhh I think I went over that one and how I feel pretty well above...Sure I want more power---Sure the ZS190cc is the best return of power per dollar invested that I can find in a significant engine mod/swap--BUT Im NOT sure I want or need all that power--what does the clone top out at with the basic ZS190cc a 17t front and 32 t rear sprocket and best sized jetted and tuned carb and decent exhaust/air filter---just 73MPH? or 77MPH? maybe 83MPH? Some ridiculously high speed like that which could quite easily wreak havok on soo many stock parts of the bike if anywhere near the top speed is used and definitley it will break stuff if top speed is used with the bike being left stock--Also maybe some of the same breaking stuff issues would come up from using most of the toque and acceleration the ZS190 produces not as sure of that though---Solution? keep spending money and changing out bike parts until you have a bike with 100% new parts to go with the brand new engine and then maybe you can use all 100% of it's power without worrying as much about crashing or breaking something weeekly or monthly ir too often...Maybe Im being bit mmm I dont know over the top say with my comments there I guess I mean to say I wish that he price of new bigger engines to swap in and the price of complete BBKs with at least heads and maybe cams was directly proportionate with the size increase and amount of power it adds over the stock engine. Or maybe I really mean to say (since I dont know all the different swap sizes horsepower and total cost numbers) I wish the smaller engine swaps were way cheaper. Of course I want a bigger engine in either a swap or MAYBE a BBK--- IF I could get the 141cc piston/cylinder kit AND a Nice pre-assembled Heavy duty Race head and race cam maybe throw in a race timed CDI for a couple hundred bucks then I likely would be going for it to give it a try and see if that is enough for what I want MY Vader to be used for because it seems sooo easy to do a BBK VS swapping in a bigger engine but the BBK is like 4 times the price I would like to see so it's on hold for me even though I have the cash even though I have a debit card and even though my credit score just increased and I have been offered larger credit lines--to me it doesnt matter if I have the money to do it because if it doesnt seem worth it for the amount of mey being spent and isnt worth it because lie with the ZS190 it might be a good price for what you get but is Maybe MORE than I want in power, then I wont want to do it if Im spending more than a couple bucks and I will probably continue to be a complete cheap-o unless I ever become a multi-millionaire --because even if I have enough money to live modestly off of for a couple years I am absolutely terrified of running completely out of money and having nowhere to live or even having somewhere to live but not being able to afford a car is pretty scary if you are like me and live in a rural area with cold enough weather over half the year including snow up to 7 months out of 12 and pretty terrible to nearly non-exsistant public transport and have barely any sidewalks in town---But hey, maybe you live in a city where its warm, where you can walk or take a bus almost everywhere you ever NEED to go and you can feel ok with spending a lot on your Grom Clone because you don't Need need a car if push came to shove SO, Ironically, the more I think about it the more I dunno what I will ultimately do...I want more power. I want to spend less on the significant power increases I can easily do. Riding my Vader is currently a major source of my daily recreation, its fun to forget my worries and clear my head by doing laps for a half hour at a time or running to the convenience store for small items on my vader instead of taking my full size V8 SUV sometimes and having fun is very important but right now My Vader is not very important to me beyond having a little fun riding in circles and saving a few miles on my suv and saving a few bucks on gas with runs to the store nearby. Maybe in my life story I just try to find a second hand or new old stock BBK/engine swap or either of those from a company going out of business or look for a giant sale--Although I have already said before I don't see a brand new ZS190cc KIT, (not just the engine but a whole kit!) being any or much less than the current coupon price of $640 Including Deliverey from Pitster Pro ... Maybe in the next chapter of my Vader experience the engine just shows up on my doorstep like an orphan needing a good home! haha I dunno Im def getting too tired right now
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"Hope for the best, Prepare for the worst, Be pleasantly surprised when the world doesn't fall down on you" "Life's too short not to enjoy it-So's my China Bike!"-Me |
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06-10-2019, 06:00 PM | #7 |
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 249
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The issue with these pit bikes and grom clones is that the gearing for the transmission is for pit bikes. That's why a 16T or 17T front sprocket is useful.
If you want to swap the engine, it's better to go with more than to go with too little and then want to switch later. Essentially the swap is just to a 190cc pit bike engine. Zongshen is the manufacturer and in multiple facebook groups, they are the manufacturers of the Daytona Anima engines that are used in racing applications. Some people reported that when they opened up their ZS190, they actually had Daytona parts in which the Daytona logo was partially ground off. The GPX motor and stuff are just the ZS190 with a different logo/stamp on them. If you do 140cc or 150c swap the issue is that you may not get electric start. If you do, you're pretty much near the price of a ZS190cc but you don't get a 5th gear. ZS190 can be had for under $700 using a coupon code. You may save money by getting a 150cc... but then you'll still be limited due to the 4 gears versus 5. Then you have to consider aftermarket parts. The ZS190 is a Daytona Anima engine. As such, people have swapped a 4v Daytona Anima head onto the ZS190. There's also a 212cc bore kit for the ZS190/Daytona Anima. Just food for thought. |
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06-11-2019, 12:03 AM | #9 |
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 403
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If your bike is stalling on idle, it is the air fuel mix screw needs adjusting or the pilot.
The 190 is good. It isn't too over the top. You probably saw in that other 'group' but motor install is just about done. Last edited by scoot newb; 04-25-2020 at 08:55 AM. |
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06-11-2019, 04:03 PM | #10 |
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 286
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Bike is looking good. Did u get your oil cooler figured out? If you don't have already, u might want to think about getting SS brake lines, huge improvement over the stockers. I went with coremoto but if you can figure out the right length in mm u can get them on wish.com, there like 10 bucks ea. I know a couple peeps that got them from there and there not bad much better then stock forsure.
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2018 BD125-8-x21rs ZS190/Genuine PE28 Kepspeed GP1 Exhaust Protaper se x110 bars/grips 1/4 MotionPro throttle Kepspeed Braced swingarm Chimera rear hub assy Grom Intergrated tail light Superlite Sprockets 17/32 custom made from Japan Chimera Swing Arm Bolt RK MXZ Chain #420 All Balls wheel bearings Motodynamic fender eliminator Coremoto ss brake lines Composimo 2.5 lower link Grom Calipers-w/ebc pads/rotors Michelin tire 140&120 13x4/13x7 fatties Grom forks |
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06-11-2019, 04:10 PM | #11 |
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 403
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Yes the oil cooler is figured out. I need to make a bracket. Right now it is on there but nothing I'd want permanently.
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06-11-2019, 04:16 PM | #12 |
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 286
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I seen some that attached to the top 2 bolts on the head with a bracket that's always an option I guess.
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2018 BD125-8-x21rs ZS190/Genuine PE28 Kepspeed GP1 Exhaust Protaper se x110 bars/grips 1/4 MotionPro throttle Kepspeed Braced swingarm Chimera rear hub assy Grom Intergrated tail light Superlite Sprockets 17/32 custom made from Japan Chimera Swing Arm Bolt RK MXZ Chain #420 All Balls wheel bearings Motodynamic fender eliminator Coremoto ss brake lines Composimo 2.5 lower link Grom Calipers-w/ebc pads/rotors Michelin tire 140&120 13x4/13x7 fatties Grom forks |
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06-11-2019, 04:19 PM | #13 |
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 286
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On your style I did see a bar that went between your plastic side panels down underneath and they had there cooler mounted to that
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2018 BD125-8-x21rs ZS190/Genuine PE28 Kepspeed GP1 Exhaust Protaper se x110 bars/grips 1/4 MotionPro throttle Kepspeed Braced swingarm Chimera rear hub assy Grom Intergrated tail light Superlite Sprockets 17/32 custom made from Japan Chimera Swing Arm Bolt RK MXZ Chain #420 All Balls wheel bearings Motodynamic fender eliminator Coremoto ss brake lines Composimo 2.5 lower link Grom Calipers-w/ebc pads/rotors Michelin tire 140&120 13x4/13x7 fatties Grom forks |
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06-26-2019, 03:10 PM | #14 |
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 249
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This should fit the grom clones
https://www.steadygarage.com/store/k...honda-grom-125 Would to secure the side fairings since airbox is removed and would give you a mounting point for the oil cooler. This one is for a kitaco oil cooler. not sure what yours looks like versus kitaco. |
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06-26-2019, 05:44 PM | #15 | |
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 403
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