Close...but not quite

Ski_rush · 03-15-2019, 11:54 PM

So, I got the new battery from Amazon today. It arrived fully charged and I bolted it up as soon as I got home. There is some progress; the engine is turning over and trying to start. So, I likely don't have a short, or a loose connection, or a bad starter solenoid, correct?

.

1. Gas was on.

2. Bike is in Neutral, but I also tried with clutch in, just to be sure.

3. You don't see this in the video, but I also tried rolling the throttle halfway and then all the way and got pretty much the same result. The sound changed a little (actually thought it might go for a second).

4. You don't see this in the video either, but I also tried with choke off, halfway, and fully on. Same result and no change whatsoever in the sound of the cranking.

Please help me get this started. I have a feeling that you all are going to suggest a carb and/or jet change...

Thanks,

tarote9025 · 03-16-2019, 12:09 AM

Is the fuel turned on i was wrenching on something the other day and almost took the carb out before i remembered to turn it back on simple stuff usually gets overlooked in my experience you could also just crank the idle screw down until it cranks and back it out after had to do it on my buddies bike about a week ago after watching him kick 30 times lol

Jeff Richardson · 03-16-2019, 12:12 AM

OK, so it's new and you've never run it. Already found a defective battery. Man, I'd be super pissed right now. Since you have a nice crank might else well pop the plug and check the spark. Then grab the ether next. I don't know how easy or difficult it is to get to the intake on those Apollos. Hawk is simple to unclamp at carb. Worst case you have easy access to the airbox with seat off. Also you should be smelling gas. Definitely want to make sure it's getting to the carb.

Ski_rush · 03-16-2019, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Richardson

OK, so it's new and you've never run it. Already found a defective battery. Man, I'd be super pissed right now. Since you have a nice crank might else well pop the plug and check the spark. Then grab the ether next. I don't know how easy or difficult it is to get to the intake on those Apollos. Hawk is simple to unclamp at carb. Worst case you have easy access to the airbox with seat off. Also you should be smelling gas. Definitely want to make sure it's getting to the carb.

1. I forgot to mention that I have a brand new NGK spark plug in it right now.

2. Yes, I smell a little gas.

3. Yes, I'm pissed and want to drop kick this thing off a cliff.

Jeff Richardson · 03-16-2019, 12:19 AM

Brand new plug but is it getting good spark when you ground it to the head?

Ski_rush · 03-16-2019, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Richardson

Brand new plug but is it getting good spark when you ground it to the head?

By grounding to the head, do you mean touching the nut/bolt of the plug to the cylinder head of the engine? If so, I didn't try that yet. Is that what you meant?

Jeff Richardson · 03-16-2019, 12:28 AM

Yes ground the tip with it plugged in while cranking. Just make sure not to pull it away while cranking or you'll get a nice little jolt. 😁

Douglass · 03-18-2019, 09:30 PM

I just checked, and it looks like the stator plug is under the gas tank. Give the CDI a try and see if that solves the issue. Next step Would be to check the Stator

I just checked my CDI, and I have a DC style 5 pin. That's probably why our kill switches are the exact opposite.

Ski_rush · 03-18-2019, 09:54 PM

Douglass, that’s very interesting that you have a 5 pin DC cdi unit. We are learning that our bikes are similar in many ways, but different in others. That makes me feel better about why I’m getting opposite readings than you. I have a 6-pin, 2-plug (4 on one and 2 on the other) cdi. And I have 6 wires. I really think that it’s an ac unit. I found something online that said simply measure the box and if it’s X dimensions, then it’s an ac unit. Mine fit that dimension almost exactly.

I remember Dan saying that some of the CDI units you get from Amazon and EBay are questionable. But, I wanted the 2 day delivery and easy return of Amazon. I actually ended up ordering two separate AC units, just in case one doesn’t work. They are different in looks. One looks like my stock one (little black box) and the other is house in an aluminum body. Hopefully, the problem is as easy as that.

I did contact Manny to let him know of my problems. Just as I expected would occur, he ignored my email. Not sure how he sleeps at night. He’s screwed over so many people, you’d think he’d constantly be checking his back.

I know we will cross that road later, but it worries me that I will replace the plug, coil, and CDI and still not get spark. After that, what else can it be? I haven’t watched videos on replacing a stator, but that can’t be fun. If I replace that, and no spark, then what!? I wasn’t planning on rewiring an entire bike from head to toe.

Like I was telling Douglass on Saturday, the odd thing is that the bike seems well built and put together otherwise. It probably would have been a fun bike to ride and it looks like it would have held up really well. It’s possible that I got a lemon that will not work unless I do a ground up restoration of the electrical system. Maybe this particular bike got damaged in shipping. It’s impossible to tell. I think it’s a great looking bike and appears well made...that is, of course, except for this major electrical issue.

DJ

culcune · 03-18-2019, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ski_rush

I know we will cross that road later, but it worries me that I will replace the plug, coil, and CDI and still not get spark. After that, what else can it be? I haven’t watched videos on replacing a stator, but that can’t be fun. If I replace that, and no spark, then what!? I wasn’t planning on rewiring an entire bike from head to toe.

Like I had mentioned, a few plugs had stranded me, so I learned to carry them with me. The time my relatively new TMEC started giving me trouble, and I changed out the plug, and that wasn't the issue, it was from a coincidence here on Chinariders and an ongoing discussion with a member from Germany solving his problem with a new cdi that I figured out to check my cdi by swapping it with my old TMEC and voila--started. My bike sounded like yours--like it was 'missing' something in order to turn over. I believe it might have been Weldandgrind who mentioned that cdi units are bad from the factory and that they can be hit or miss. The old TMEC I rode for two years never had that issue, and ended up being the replacement unit for my new bike. My friend who distributed TMEC enduros in the US sent me out a replacement under warranty and I probably still have it wrapped up somewhere.

Ariel Red Hunter · 03-19-2019, 05:20 PM

[QUOTE=Ski_rush;303511]Douglass, that’s very interesting that you have a 5 pin DC cdi unit. We are learning that our bikes are similar in many ways, but different in others. That makes me feel better about why I’m getting opposite readings than you. I have a 6-pin, 2-plug (4 on one and 2 on the other) cdi. And I have 6 wires. I really think that it’s an ac unit. I found something online that said simply measure the box and if it’s X dimensions, then it’s an ac unit. Mine fit that dimension almost exactly.

I remember Dan saying that some of the CDI units you get from Amazon and EBay are questionable. But, I wanted the 2 day delivery and easy return of Amazon. I actually ended up ordering two separate AC units, just in case one doesn’t work. They are different in looks. One looks like my stock one (little black box) and the other is house in an aluminum body. Hopefully, the problem is as easy as that.

I did contact Manny to let him know of my problems. Just as I expected would occur, he ignored my email. Not sure how he sleeps at night. He’s screwed over so many people, you’d think he’d constantly be checking his back.

I know we will cross that road later, but it worries me that I will replace the plug, coil, and CDI and still not get spark. After that, what else can it be? I haven’t watched videos on replacing a stator, but that can’t be fun. If I replace that, and no spark, then what!? I wasn’t planning on rewiring an entire bike from head to toe.

Like I was telling Douglass on Saturday, the odd thing is that the bike seems well built and put together otherwise. It probably would have been a fun bike to ride and it looks like it would have held up really well. It’s possible that I got a lemon that will not work unless I do a ground up restoration of the electrical system. Maybe this particular bike got damaged in shipping. It’s impossible to tell. I think it’s a great looking bike and appears well made...that is, of course, except for this major electrical issue.

DJ[/QUOTE If the problem is in the stator, it is a pretty easy problem to correct. But the problem is much more likely to be either the C.D.I. unit, or a break/short where the wires come out of the case. Lets see where the new CDI leads us first...ARH

**JerryHawk250** · 03-16-2019, 07:21 AM

Did your bike come with a remote start? If so try starting it with it. Could be something with the alarm system killing the spark.

Ski_rush · 03-16-2019, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JerryHawk250

Did your bike come with a remote start? If so try starting it with it. Could be something with the alarm system killing the spark.

No, no remote start.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hancadam

These are the kind of risk and challenges we accept when buying these bikes. Some of use get very lucky, others not. But when there are issues like this with Chinese bikes, it's mostly up to the buyer to accept in my opinion. At least I assume me working to fix it is the most palatable solution over trying to get help from the "dealer" (like you said, especially Manny).

Where are you located? Maybe one of us are close to you. This is something we can collectively resolve. Point is, the problem/solution is likely very cheap or free to fix, once found.

I'm in the northeast corner of Nebraska...pretty remote. Near Sioux City, Iowa. I know there's some risk, but I definitely expect it to start...

pete · 03-16-2019, 07:57 AM

I think the starter could be robbing most of the power not
leaving enough for the spark... weak or no spark..

some bike starter just barely crank the motor fast enough to start it..

I know you have a new battery.... but not all are created equal..
just don't buy cheap battery's .. " Yuasa "

kick it.. push it... try engine start...

once started and run for a few minute the issue could go away...
I have rebuilt motors... they would not start with out a push...
but once started they were perfect from then on..

..

..

Hancadam · 03-16-2019, 08:12 AM

I know it's frustrating, and confusing tracking down electrical issues, but this is probably something very simple and cheap. Finding what that simple problem is the hard part. If youre not getting spark, it can a host of things.

Possible problems areas to check:
Bad ground
Popped fuse
Kill switch (if you have one)
Bad cdi
Battery (I know you replaced, but points above are valid)
Loose connection
Bad ignition coil or boot
Etc...

These are the kind of risk and challenges we accept when buying these bikes. Some of use get very lucky, others not. But when there are issues like this with Chinese bikes, it's mostly up to the buyer to accept in my opinion. At least I assume me working to fix it is the most palatable solution over trying to get help from the "dealer" (like you said, especially Manny).

Where are you located? Maybe one of us are close to you. This is something we can collectively resolve. Point is, the problem/solution is likely very cheap or free to fix, once found.

03-15-2019, 11:54 PM	#1
Ski_rush Join Date: Feb 2017 Posts: 449	Close...but not quite So, I got the new battery from Amazon today. It arrived fully charged and I bolted it up as soon as I got home. There is some progress; the engine is turning over and trying to start. So, I likely don't have a short, or a loose connection, or a bad starter solenoid, correct? . 1. Gas was on. 2. Bike is in Neutral, but I also tried with clutch in, just to be sure. 3. You don't see this in the video, but I also tried rolling the throttle halfway and then all the way and got pretty much the same result. The sound changed a little (actually thought it might go for a second). 4. You don't see this in the video either, but I also tried with choke off, halfway, and fully on. Same result and no change whatsoever in the sound of the cranking. Please help me get this started. I have a feeling that you all are going to suggest a carb and/or jet change... Thanks,
	0

03-18-2019, 09:30 PM	#8
Douglass Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: Bay Area, CA Posts: 375	I just checked, and it looks like the stator plug is under the gas tank. Give the CDI a try and see if that solves the issue. Next step Would be to check the Stator I just checked my CDI, and I have a DC style 5 pin. That's probably why our kill switches are the exact opposite. Last edited by Douglass; 03-19-2019 at 12:05 AM.
	0

03-16-2019, 07:21 AM	#12
JerryHawk250 Moderator Join Date: Oct 2016 Location: Houma, La. Posts: 11,578	Did your bike come with a remote start? If so try starting it with it. Could be something with the alarm system killing the spark. __________________ 2023 Lifan Lycan 250 Chopper 2023 Venom Evader 2022 Lifan KPX250 2020 Kawasaki Vulcan S 2004 Honda ST 1300 2016 Black Hawk 250 (sold) Keihin PE30 carb,125 main,38 slow.Pod filter,ported & decked head 10:1 CR,Direct Ignition Coil,15/40Sprockets,NGK DPR8EIX-9,De-Cat,Dual Oil Cooler,Digital Cluster 2016 Cazador180 XL 2014 Coolster150 JerryHawk250.com My YouTube Channel
	0

03-16-2019, 07:57 AM	#14
pete Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: ChCh , NZ Posts: 2,262	I think the starter could be robbing most of the power not leaving enough for the spark... weak or no spark.. some bike starter just barely crank the motor fast enough to start it.. I know you have a new battery.... but not all are created equal.. just don't buy cheap battery's .. " Yuasa " kick it.. push it... try engine start... once started and run for a few minute the issue could go away... I have rebuilt motors... they would not start with out a push... but once started they were perfect from then on.. .. .. __________________ 09 XT660R ... 06 TTR250 ... 80 Montesa H6 125 Enduro... 77 Montesa Cota 348 MRR "Malcom Rathnell Replica"... Current resto projects.. 81 Honda CT110... 80 Kawasaki KL250A1... 11 Husaburg TE125 enduro... "sold" along with another 31... Lifan 125 Pitbike.. "stolen" ... KIWI BIKER FORUM...... http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/content.php All the best offroad rides in NZ... http://www.remotemoto.com/ E-mail... xtpete1@gmail.com
	0

03-16-2019, 12:09 AM	#2
tarote9025 Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: miramar beach fl Posts: 112	Is the fuel turned on i was wrenching on something the other day and almost took the carb out before i remembered to turn it back on simple stuff usually gets overlooked in my experience you could also just crank the idle screw down until it cranks and back it out after had to do it on my buddies bike about a week ago after watching him kick 30 times lol
	0

03-16-2019, 12:12 AM	#3
Jeff Richardson Join Date: May 2018 Posts: 64	OK, so it's new and you've never run it. Already found a defective battery. Man, I'd be super pissed right now. Since you have a nice crank might else well pop the plug and check the spark. Then grab the ether next. I don't know how easy or difficult it is to get to the intake on those Apollos. Hawk is simple to unclamp at carb. Worst case you have easy access to the airbox with seat off. Also you should be smelling gas. Definitely want to make sure it's getting to the carb.
	0

03-16-2019, 12:19 AM	#5
Jeff Richardson Join Date: May 2018 Posts: 64	Brand new plug but is it getting good spark when you ground it to the head?
	1

03-16-2019, 12:28 AM	#7
Jeff Richardson Join Date: May 2018 Posts: 64	Yes ground the tip with it plugged in while cranking. Just make sure not to pull it away while cranking or you'll get a nice little jolt. 😁
	1

03-18-2019, 09:54 PM	#9
Ski_rush Join Date: Feb 2017 Posts: 449	Douglass, that’s very interesting that you have a 5 pin DC cdi unit. We are learning that our bikes are similar in many ways, but different in others. That makes me feel better about why I’m getting opposite readings than you. I have a 6-pin, 2-plug (4 on one and 2 on the other) cdi. And I have 6 wires. I really think that it’s an ac unit. I found something online that said simply measure the box and if it’s X dimensions, then it’s an ac unit. Mine fit that dimension almost exactly. I remember Dan saying that some of the CDI units you get from Amazon and EBay are questionable. But, I wanted the 2 day delivery and easy return of Amazon. I actually ended up ordering two separate AC units, just in case one doesn’t work. They are different in looks. One looks like my stock one (little black box) and the other is house in an aluminum body. Hopefully, the problem is as easy as that. I did contact Manny to let him know of my problems. Just as I expected would occur, he ignored my email. Not sure how he sleeps at night. He’s screwed over so many people, you’d think he’d constantly be checking his back. I know we will cross that road later, but it worries me that I will replace the plug, coil, and CDI and still not get spark. After that, what else can it be? I haven’t watched videos on replacing a stator, but that can’t be fun. If I replace that, and no spark, then what!? I wasn’t planning on rewiring an entire bike from head to toe. Like I was telling Douglass on Saturday, the odd thing is that the bike seems well built and put together otherwise. It probably would have been a fun bike to ride and it looks like it would have held up really well. It’s possible that I got a lemon that will not work unless I do a ground up restoration of the electrical system. Maybe this particular bike got damaged in shipping. It’s impossible to tell. I think it’s a great looking bike and appears well made...that is, of course, except for this major electrical issue. DJ
	1

03-19-2019, 05:20 PM	#11
Ariel Red Hunter Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: akwesasne, NY-13655 Posts: 2,220	[QUOTE=Ski_rush;303511]Douglass, that’s very interesting that you have a 5 pin DC cdi unit. We are learning that our bikes are similar in many ways, but different in others. That makes me feel better about why I’m getting opposite readings than you. I have a 6-pin, 2-plug (4 on one and 2 on the other) cdi. And I have 6 wires. I really think that it’s an ac unit. I found something online that said simply measure the box and if it’s X dimensions, then it’s an ac unit. Mine fit that dimension almost exactly. I remember Dan saying that some of the CDI units you get from Amazon and EBay are questionable. But, I wanted the 2 day delivery and easy return of Amazon. I actually ended up ordering two separate AC units, just in case one doesn’t work. They are different in looks. One looks like my stock one (little black box) and the other is house in an aluminum body. Hopefully, the problem is as easy as that. I did contact Manny to let him know of my problems. Just as I expected would occur, he ignored my email. Not sure how he sleeps at night. He’s screwed over so many people, you’d think he’d constantly be checking his back. I know we will cross that road later, but it worries me that I will replace the plug, coil, and CDI and still not get spark. After that, what else can it be? I haven’t watched videos on replacing a stator, but that can’t be fun. If I replace that, and no spark, then what!? I wasn’t planning on rewiring an entire bike from head to toe. Like I was telling Douglass on Saturday, the odd thing is that the bike seems well built and put together otherwise. It probably would have been a fun bike to ride and it looks like it would have held up really well. It’s possible that I got a lemon that will not work unless I do a ground up restoration of the electrical system. Maybe this particular bike got damaged in shipping. It’s impossible to tell. I think it’s a great looking bike and appears well made...that is, of course, except for this major electrical issue. DJ[/QUOTE If the problem is in the stator, it is a pretty easy problem to correct. But the problem is much more likely to be either the C.D.I. unit, or a break/short where the wires come out of the case. Lets see where the new CDI leads us first...ARH
	2

03-16-2019, 08:12 AM	#15
Hancadam Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Tennessee Posts: 201	I know it's frustrating, and confusing tracking down electrical issues, but this is probably something very simple and cheap. Finding what that simple problem is the hard part. If youre not getting spark, it can a host of things. Possible problems areas to check: Bad ground Popped fuse Kill switch (if you have one) Bad cdi Battery (I know you replaced, but points above are valid) Loose connection Bad ignition coil or boot Etc... These are the kind of risk and challenges we accept when buying these bikes. Some of use get very lucky, others not. But when there are issues like this with Chinese bikes, it's mostly up to the buyer to accept in my opinion. At least I assume me working to fix it is the most palatable solution over trying to get help from the "dealer" (like you said, especially Manny). Where are you located? Maybe one of us are close to you. This is something we can collectively resolve. Point is, the problem/solution is likely very cheap or free to fix, once found.
	1