Charging system testing- weak starter? just clicking? Is it the battery?

[Thumper]

Does your bike just "click" when you press the starter button? Or does the starter motor weakly turn the engine over and it fails to fire up?

Maybe you wonder if your charging system is not maintaining the battery? Do you need a voltage regulator? Do you need a new stator??

Here are a few things to test:

If you haven't adjusted the valves, it's not a bad idea to do this first. Covered elsewhere...The process is identical for any of these 4 stroke engines, but clearance on pushrod engines should be 0.003-0.005" exhaust, 0.002-0.003" intake:
https://www.chinariders.net/showpost...4&postcount=21

Also, wiring connections can get oxidized or loose. The battery terminal connections, ground wire on the engine (from the battery), wires connected to the starter solenoid, and the thick wire connected to the starter can be wire brushed or polished with steel wool, and reconnected. If you follow the thick wire back from the starter, it is connected to the solenoid. The other thick wire on the solenoid goes to the battery positive terminal. FYI, the starter solenoid/relay just connects these two wires to run the starter (it's a high amperage device).

You can bypass the starter solenoid to verify that it isn't the problem. You can use a screwdriver or short heavy wire to connect those two heavy wires connected to the solenoid. Put it in neutral first! If the key is turned on, it may start when you do this.

If the starter turns the engine rapidly, but it just isn't firing up, it could be spark or gas issue, but if it ran OK before and the starter just isn't cranking it strongly, you may have a weak charging system resulting in low battery charge, dead or bad battery, or you just need a charge.

If you don't already have one, BUY A MULTIMETER. You NEED one to test your battery, and to test your charging system.

If you can kick start it, or jump start it from a car or another motorcycle battery and it turns rapidly and starts, GREAT. While it is running, USE THE MULTIMETER (set to DC voltage) to test the charging system: Connect the multimeter to the battery terminals-red to red (pos) and black to black (Neg/ground) and you should see MORE than 14 volts pushing onto the battery at ~1500-1700rpm.

If it started with a jump, and the charging system checks out, then charge the battery. A floating battery maintainer/charger costs about $35.

RESTING BATTERY TEST (key turned OFF): AFTER charging, what is the resting battery voltage? It should be at least close to 13V for a healthy battery. If it is less, disconnect the ground terminal on the battery and test it again. Did the voltage go up? If so, your bike is constantly draining the battery (short somewhere? bad switch?).

A BAD battery (grounding out inside) can suck the voltage and prevent starting. It won't charge if this is the case, and will overheat your charger (charger should show the ground fault, like red light flashing or something). This is actually pretty rare unless it's an old battery, maybe you bought a barn find or the bike hasn't been run, but left out and neglected for a year or two. If the valves are adjusted, and the bike has been running with a good spark plug and the charging system is good, even a WEAK BATTERY can usually start the bike. Batteries do eventually fail of course. If it can't charge to and hold a charge of ~12.5V overnight, replace it.

As mentioned above, if you can kick start, or jump start the bike and it starts easily, then charge the battery and do the resting battery test above.

If the charging system is not pushing 14V or more into the battery at 1500-1700rpm, then your charging system is not up to snuff. It could be the rectifier/regulator, or it could be a weak stator. Loose wires or oxidized wires can cause this too. If the resting battery voltage test is the same with/without the negative ground connected but the charging system isn't pushing 14+ volts when running, then you will need to troubleshoot the charging system.

[tknj99]

Great info.. I recently diagnosed a failed starter on my Beta.. it would click once and then nothing. The battery would quickly drain in addition to the power wire from the starter solenoid getting hot. I initially thought it was the battery but found the starter as the culprit once I opened i removed and tried to turn the armature and it was grinding. After opening it up I found several magnets pulverized inside. Bought a knockoff ktm starter on Amazon, replaced the case and reused the original armature and front cover and voila started right up.
The other starting issue I've encountered was on my Honda Fury related to starting when hot it would crank a couple times and not start. The fix for that was a secondary ground for this known issue.

[Thumper]

My 6 speed Templar X starter had a short. It cranked weakly, even with a charged battery, or a jump. These symptoms made me wonder what was going on inside that new starter

I took it apart and found that the rotor windings armature was grazing a metal plate that the brushes mounted on. There was blackened evidence of the short on the plate and the tip of the armature...I used a dremel to shave both sides away from each other, cleaned and reassembled the starter with lube on both ends, and the thing worked perfectly.

[tknj99]

Originally Posted by Thumper

My 6 speed Templar X starter had a short. It cranked weakly, even with a charged battery, or a jump. These symptoms made me wonder what was going on inside that new starter

I took it apart and found that the rotor windings armature was grazing a metal plate that the brushes mounted on. There was blackened evidence of the short on the plate and the tip of the armature...I used a dremel to shave both sides away from each other, cleaned and reassembled the starter with lube on both ends, and the thing worked perfectly.

Interesting.. the guy that bought my Templar X last year messaged me recently asking for advice related to issues starting as well.. based on what he said i told him it sounded like the starter.. wondering if it'll wind up being a known issue on these Templar X's as its not sounding like a coincidence as starters usually last alot longer than a year or so

[Thumper]

Originally Posted by tknj99

Interesting.. the guy that bought my Templar X last year messaged me recently asking for advice related to issues starting as well.. based on what he said i told him it sounded like the starter.. wondering if it'll wind up being a known issue on these Templar X's as its not sounding like a coincidence as starters usually last a lot longer than a year or so

I would say that the faulty starter in my Templar X was an engine supplier issue (Zongshen). Zuma (Wuyi Zuumav) doesn't make engines. They rely on engines provided by Zongshen for the Templars, and Zongshen probably provides them support for warranty issues. PSM actually sent me a new starter when I sent them evidence of the problem. I was impressed with the response. PSM has always tried to make things right. Find this starter in the free classified area- it was actually for a different engine. I guess I was lucky to figure out and fix the problem. Perfectly good starter with a minor and fixable manufacturing defect.

The charging system was still working great. Pushing the starter button, on the other hand, didn't activate the starter very well, and put a serious drain on the battery

[Zapkin]

Originally Posted by Thumper

I would say that the faulty starter in my Templar X was an engine supplier issue (Zongshen). Zuma (Wuyi Zuumav) doesn't make engines. They rely on engines provided by Zongshen for the Templars, and Zongshen probably provides them support for warranty issues. PSM actually sent me a new starter when I sent them evidence of the problem. I was impressed with the response. PSM has always tried to make things right. Find this starter in the free classified area- it was actually for a different engine. I guess I was lucky to figure out and fix the problem. Perfectly good starter with a minor and fixable manufacturing defect.

The charging system was still working great. Pushing the starter button, on the other hand, didn't activate the starter very well, and put a serious drain on the battery

PSM did me right too. I had a couple of issues and they actually sent me more than I actually asked for. My son-in-law just put a little X-pro 140cc on layaway for my grandkids. Can't wait to play around with that and see their smiles!

[Texas Pete]

Originally Posted by Thumper

If it started with a jump, and the charging system checks out, then charge the battery. A floating battery maintainer/charger costs about $35.

That’s just good advice even before encountering any battery issues. From day one I got the Harbor Freight VIKING 4Amp Fully Automatic Microprocessor-Controlled Battery Charger/Maintainer unit. It came with NMEA quick plugs that I could screw to the battery leaving the tail end in the hole in the side plastic under the seat. Easy to get to and pull out at the end of a ride.

At the end of every ride I plug it in and leave it on until next time I ride. It always shows an over-charge immediately following a ride and discharges the battery a small amount then charges it until at optimum long term holding charge holding it there until next ride.

This is how I have gotten flawless years of service from the stock OEM battery that came with the Templar X 250.

Because I now have to leave the bike at work away from the charger/maintainer for twelve hour shifts, I have since added battery operated nipple clamps (tiny lithium smart jump starter) to my arsenal and take it with me everywhere in the bottom of my backpack. I have never had to use it at all so far, knock on wood. But if I do I am fully prepared not to need a tow, or on the road service call. Boy scout motto always be prepared.

The rest of the post is also good information.

[Do©Hawk]

Originally Posted by Thunper

You can bypass the starter solenoid to verify that it isn't the problem. You can use a screwdriver or short heavy wire to connect those two heavy wires connected to the solenoid. Put it in neutral first! If the key is turned on, it may start when you do this.

I tried this and my positive battery terminal started smoking. Did I miss a step or is that a sign of the problem?

My starter is whirring and clicking, but not engaging. I've been going through testing to isolate the problem. At rest my battery is over 13 V. While running, over 14. Kickstart works. Wires around battery and starter appear to be in good shape as do the connections. Little bit of corrosion at the positive terminal.

[Thumper]

Originally Posted by Do©Hawk

I tried this and my positive battery terminal started smoking. Did I miss a step or is that a sign of the problem?

My starter is whirring and clicking, but not engaging. I've been going through testing to isolate the problem. At rest my battery is over 13 V. While running, over 14. Kickstart works. Wires around battery and starter appear to be in good shape as do the connections. Little bit of corrosion at the positive terminal.

It should NOT smoke unless your starter has a ground fault. AND, if your starter solenoid works, it is connecting the SAME two heavy wires...and it would cause the smoking as well. Are you sure you connected the right wires? Don't ground the positive pole on the battery.

The solenoid just connects those two heavy wires connected to the solenoid when you press the starter button. Bypassing the solenoid means connecting those two heavy wires (AT the solenoid), bypassing the solenoid switch inside the thing.

Bypass the solenoid-If you connect those two heavy wires with a short heavy wire (or screwdriver if the poles aren't separated by a tall barrier), the starter should be getting the 13V directly from the positive pole on the battery (test as described below). The body of the starter serves as ground (it is bolted to the engine). Pressing the starter button does the same thing- connects the positive line from the battery to the heavy lead that goes to the starter.

You can test the solenoid function by checking that the 13V is getting passed to the starter input lead (bolted to the starter) when you press the starter button. The heavy wire AT the starter should have 12-13V when you do this. Do you here a click from the solenoid?

[Thumper]

Originally Posted by Do©Hawk

My starter is whirring and clicking, but not engaging.

I forgot to address this. If you can hear the starter motor freely spinning, then the starter is not connecting to the starter gear. Remove the starter and inspect the business end of the starter where the gear is. Is it damaged?

The gear should engage the gearing that connects to a gear on the crankshaft (stator side). I have not gotten into this so another member will have to chime in on checking this linkage. You can actually verify that the starter is spining when you have it out. While it is out, power it via the input 12V connector and ground the body to the battery to "turn on" the starter motor. Hold it firmly... lots of torque!

[Do©Hawk]

Originally Posted by Do©Hawk

........Little bit of corrosion at the positive terminal.

I believe my problems started here, but the 1st symptom was the starter not engaging, but there were also some electrical issues that made me think wiring.

When I bridged the prongs on the starter solenoid with a screwdriver, I got sparks and smoke from the positive battery terminal and the terminal screw welded itself to the nut. After getting the screw and nut apart, I had a hard time getting that screw tight-tight, but I thought it was tight enough. I was wrong.

Fast forward to yesterday. Solenoid and relays received, still waiting for starter, but I cant leave well enough alone. Put in a relay, no change, not part of the problem. Disconnect the battery again, change solenoid, reconnected the battery and discover that the one nut and screw were wonky. I fuss with it for a bit and get it on and tight. Hit the starter button and it fires right up. OKayeee. Now I'm curious. Pull the new solenoid and put the old back on and it starts right up. No new parts necessary.

I think this was a perfect storm of lack of experience, pessimism, and some of my own Idiocracy. Parts purchased weren't much over $40, so I intend to keep them. Mistakes were made on my part, but lessons were learned. I'm just glad to have it running right again.

[Thumper]

It is surprising how often disconnecting each connection, wire brush, clean, reconnect throughout fixes things on an old bike!

[J4Fun]

Good advice from Thumper and I’m assuming that a loose battery connection wasn’t the cause of the smoke and problem?

[Hawks & Turkeys]

Originally Posted by Thumper

Does your bike just "click" when you press the starter button? Or does the starter motor weakly turn the engine over and it fails to fire up?

Maybe you wonder if your charging system is not maintaining the battery? Do you need a voltage regulator? Do you need a new stator??

Here are a few things to test:

If you haven't adjusted the valves, it's not a bad idea to do this first. Covered elsewhere...The process is identical for any of these 4 stroke engines, but clearance on pushrod engines should be 0.003-0.005" exhaust, 0.002-0.003" intake:
https://www.chinariders.net/showpost...4&postcount=21

Also, wiring connections can get oxidized or loose. The battery terminal connections, ground wire on the engine (from the battery), wires connected to the starter solenoid, and the thick wire connected to the starter can be wire brushed or polished with steel wool, and reconnected. If you follow the thick wire back from the starter, it is connected to the solenoid. The other thick wire on the solenoid goes to the battery positive terminal. FYI, the starter solenoid/relay just connects these two wires to run the starter (it's a high amperage device).

You can bypass the starter solenoid to verify that it isn't the problem. You can use a screwdriver or short heavy wire to connect those two heavy wires connected to the solenoid. Put it in neutral first! If the key is turned on, it may start when you do this.

If the starter turns the engine rapidly, but it just isn't firing up, it could be spark or gas issue, but if it ran OK before and the starter just isn't cranking it strongly, you may have a weak charging system resulting in low battery charge, dead or bad battery, or you just need a charge.

If you don't already have one, BUY A MULTIMETER. You NEED one to test your battery, and to test your charging system.

If you can kick start it, or jump start it from a car or another motorcycle battery and it turns rapidly and starts, GREAT. While it is running, USE THE MULTIMETER (set to DC voltage) to test the charging system: Connect the multimeter to the battery terminals-red to red (pos) and black to black (Neg/ground) and you should see MORE than 14 volts pushing onto the battery at ~1500-1700rpm.

If it started with a jump, and the charging system checks out, then charge the battery. A floating battery maintainer/charger costs about $35.

RESTING BATTERY TEST (key turned OFF): AFTER charging, what is the resting battery voltage? It should be at least close to 13V for a healthy battery. If it is less, disconnect the ground terminal on the battery and test it again. Did the voltage go up? If so, your bike is constantly draining the battery (short somewhere? bad switch?).

A BAD battery (grounding out inside) can suck the voltage and prevent starting. It won't charge if this is the case, and will overheat your charger (charger should show the ground fault, like red light flashing or something). This is actually pretty rare unless it's an old battery, maybe you bought a barn find or the bike hasn't been run, but left out and neglected for a year or two. If the valves are adjusted, and the bike has been running with a good spark plug and the charging system is good, even a WEAK BATTERY can usually start the bike. Batteries do eventually fail of course. If it can't charge to and hold a charge of ~12.5V overnight, replace it.

As mentioned above, if you can kick start, or jump start the bike and it starts easily, then charge the battery and do the resting battery test above.

If the charging system is not pushing 14V or more into the battery at 1500-1700rpm, then your charging system is not up to snuff. It could be the rectifier/regulator, or it could be a weak stator. Loose wires or oxidized wires can cause this too. If the resting battery voltage test is the same with/without the negative ground connected but the charging system isn't pushing 14+ volts when running, then you will need to troubleshoot the charging system.

You nailed it when you mentioned a "thick wire" running from the battery to the solenoid. Its the same with the "thick wire" running from the solenoid to the starter. The Hawks seem to come from the factory with these wires that can't deliver enough power to turn over the engine. I found a company on eBay (Gauge Wire & Cable) that makes custom length battery cables and I replaced both the battery-to-solenoid wire and the solenoid to starter wire. I replaced the factory battery with a Mighty Max and, with occasional trickle charging, I have a lot fewer issues with the bike starting up.

[J4Fun]

A thicker wire is probably better but depending on the battery and it’s ability to handle the connections is, or can be a problem. I still think corrosion or loose connections at the battery posts are the problem. Just thinking out loud reading post #8…also post #1 mentions it…