Vader Big Bore Kit

[Themanoz]

Hey guys, I've been using this site as a reference for a while now. Finally decided to join in on the fun! So I have a Vader/Baodiao 125cc grom clone. I have been doing some work on it here and there, mainly power upgrades to keep up with traffic in busy Southern California aka 60 mph comfortably. So far, I have installed the mikuni 26mm carb, 17t front sprocket, and aftermarket exhaust w/ gutted cat. Top speed was 60 mph exactly so far! Now I'm looking for a big bore kit as a next step.

Here are my 2 options that I have found:

http://www.tbparts.com/product/tb-14...nimport-heads/

http://www.tbparts.com/product/tb-14...nimport-heads/


So my question is: what is the wrist pin diameter on these engines? My research hasn't given solid results. The 141cc bore requires a 14mm pin and the 146cc bore requires a 13mm pin. Do you guys think it would be possible to fit a 14mm piston with the 146cc kit? On another site, it says the 146cc kit has a 14mm option (https://tboltusa.com/store/tbparts-r...ines-p-55.html)

On a separate note, would this cam fit in the head?

https://tboltusa.com/store/race-cam-...ds-p-2482.html

I know this is long, just need some input! Thanks guys.

[Themanoz]

I found my answer guys. I feel kind of dumb but it's also a learning experience. The difference with the 2 kits is in the stroke measurements. The cylinder is exactly the same. The 146cc kit is for a 57mm stroke engine which gives it a 146cc displacement with the new 57mm bore, the only difference is the 13mm wrist pin. The 141cc kit is for a 55mm stroke which gives it a 141cc displacement with the 57mm bore, with the 14mm wrist pin. I also found that the vader engine is a variant of the Lifan 125cc (engine no. 1P54FMI). This engine has a 54mm x 54mm bore and stroke AND the 14mm wrist pin. So the 141cc bore kit should fit, as I have seen other users with the vader on this forum with this kit as well. However, since it's a 54mm stroke, it will only give you 138cc.

Still need some guidance on that cam though if anyone has some inputs on that!

It looks like the vaders have the big valve YX heads on them so the cam should work. The kit I showed comes with new valve springs as well so it should work nicely with the larger lobes on the cam.

[loganlexow]

Originally Posted by Themanoz

Hey guys, I've been using this site as a reference for a while now. Finally decided to join in on the fun! So I have a Vader/Baodiao 125cc grom clone. I have been doing some work on it here and there, mainly power upgrades to keep up with traffic in busy Southern California aka 60 mph comfortably. So far, I have installed the mikuni 26mm carb, 17t front sprocket, and aftermarket exhaust w/ gutted cat. Top speed was 60 mph exactly so far! Now I'm looking for a big bore kit as a next step.

Here are my 2 options that I have found:

http://www.tbparts.com/product/tb-14...nimport-heads/

http://www.tbparts.com/product/tb-14...nimport-heads/


So my question is: what is the wrist pin diameter on these engines? My research hasn't given solid results. The 141cc bore requires a 14mm pin and the 146cc bore requires a 13mm pin. Do you guys think it would be possible to fit a 14mm piston with the 146cc kit? On another site, it says the 146cc kit has a 14mm option (https://tboltusa.com/store/tbparts-r...ines-p-55.html)

On a separate note, would this cam fit in the head?

https://tboltusa.com/store/race-cam-...ds-p-2482.html

I know this is long, just need some input! Thanks guys.

I know this is old but I'm wondering if you ended up doing either of these kits and cam? I'm in the same train of thought and looking for more power on my Vader.

[culcune]

I wish I had caught this thread earlier for the first guy--if So. Cal means the L.A. area, I would have directed him to Kronik Racing in Simi Valley, California.

Actually, they sell Vaders and pitbikes and all kinds of power adders, up to and including 190cc engines for them, and are not ashamed to be dealing in Chinese bikes in So. California, no less. I would give them a call to see what parts they have for you. They don't really ship bikes other than locally, but they would ship parts, not to mention, offer advice backed by being in business for several years.

http://www.kronikracing.com/

[Themanoz]

Originally Posted by culcune

I wish I had caught this thread earlier for the first guy--if So. Cal means the L.A. area, I would have directed him to Kronik Racing in Simi Valley, California.

Actually, they sell Vaders and pitbikes and all kinds of power adders, up to and including 190cc engines for them, and are not ashamed to be dealing in Chinese bikes in So. California, no less. I would give them a call to see what parts they have for you. They don't really ship bikes other than locally, but they would ship parts, not to mention, offer advice backed by being in business for several years.

http://www.kronikracing.com/

Thanks for the info! I'll look into them if I ever feel like upgrading the bike again. I'm in the inland empire so a little out of the way from LA but not too far.

[sirmaxwell]

Originally Posted by culcune

I wish I had caught this thread earlier for the first guy--if So. Cal means the L.A. area, I would have directed him to Kronik Racing in Simi Valley, California.

Actually, they sell Vaders and pitbikes and all kinds of power adders, up to and including 190cc engines for them, and are not ashamed to be dealing in Chinese bikes in So. California, no less. I would give them a call to see what parts they have for you. They don't really ship bikes other than locally, but they would ship parts, not to mention, offer advice backed by being in business for several years.

http://www.kronikracing.com/

hmmm...I just placed a complete bike order from them to the Right Coast

[Themanoz]

Originally Posted by loganlexow

I know this is old but I'm wondering if you ended up doing either of these kits and cam? I'm in the same train of thought and looking for more power on my Vader.

I ended up putting on the 146cc big bore kit with a v2 race head from tbparts. Here's the link:

https://tboltusa.com/store/tbparts-r...ines-p-55.html

This kit has really transformed the bike. It is has a bunch more torque and power. I was able to hit 65 mph in a full tuck even with me being 6 foot, 220 lbs. I also swapped my rear sprocket to a "lightweight" 32 tooth. Helped on the top speed end. Only issue with the kit is that the head gasket seems to be a little thin on the bottom of the oil return so I've had to replace it a few times due to it leaking. Other than that, I would definitely recommend doing this!

[sirmaxwell]

Originally Posted by Themanoz

I ended up putting on the 146cc big bore kit with a v2 race head from tbparts. Here's the link:

https://tboltusa.com/store/tbparts-r...ines-p-55.html

This kit has really transformed the bike. It is has a bunch more torque and power. I was able to hit 65 mph in a full tuck even with me being 6 foot, 220 lbs. I also swapped my rear sprocket to a "lightweight" 32 tooth. Helped on the top speed end. Only issue with the kit is that the head gasket seems to be a little thin on the bottom of the oil return so I've had to replace it a few times due to it leaking. Other than that, I would definitely recommend doing this!

I don't doubt that kit adds power and cc because it actually looks like it might be a very good kit ...that adds about 14cc by my calculations simply of what they state at a quick glance of the kit description glance ...I am wondering just how much it adds and if I am doing the displacement wrong or using wrong figures I got from earlier in this thread. Okay to get displacement in cc the formula is: (0.5 x bore) x (0.5 x bore) x 3.14 x stroke all in cc to get cc displacement.

earlier in this thread you said this here Vader engine is square @ 54mmx54mm borexstroke.....displacement = (0.5 x 5.4) x (0.5 x 5.4)
= 2.7 x 2.7 = 7.29
7.29 x 3.14 {pi}= 22.8906 x stroke 5.4= 123.60924cc stock Vader

that kit Only mentions upping the bore to 57mm while the stroke stays at 54, yes?...so using same formula above I only get 137.72511cc displacement

So...I'm guessing maybe it gets a cc or two from a deeper dish head or curved piston?? or stacking extra gaskets to get an extra 1-2cc which i have seen many times...OR it's a simple case I'm dumb and can't multiply....or..OR are they simply overstating the CC of the kit like soooo many Ebay sellers from China and elsewhere do in order to compete?

[Themanoz]

Originally Posted by sirmaxwell

I don't doubt that kit adds power and cc because it actually looks like it might be a very good kit ...that adds about 14cc by my calculations simply of what they state at a quick glance of the kit description glance ...I am wondering just how much it adds and if I am doing the displacement wrong or using wrong figures I got from earlier in this thread. Okay to get displacement in cc the formula is: (0.5 x bore) x (0.5 x bore) x 3.14 x stroke all in cc to get cc displacement.

earlier in this thread you said this here Vader engine is square @ 54mmx54mm borexstroke.....displacement = (0.5 x 5.4) x (0.5 x 5.4)
= 2.7 x 2.7 = 7.29
7.29 x 3.14 {pi}= 22.8906 x stroke 5.4= 123.60924cc stock Vader

that kit Only mentions upping the bore to 57mm while the stroke stays at 54, yes?...so using same formula above I only get 137.72511cc displacement

So...I'm guessing maybe it gets a cc or two from a deeper dish head or curved piston?? or stacking extra gaskets to get an extra 1-2cc which i have seen many times...OR it's a simple case I'm dumb and can't multiply....or..OR are they simply overstating the CC of the kit like soooo many Ebay sellers from China and elsewhere do in order to compete?

The cc improvement may not be much, but my guess is the new cylinder race head makes more of an improvement than the bore. It comes with a more aggressively timed cam and roller rocker arms so it revs up much quicker. Also, the piston that comes with the big bore kit has much higher compression than the stock one; it has a more convex shape to it. There's not much more room for a larger bore due to the rods holding the cylinder and head in place. The steel lining of the cylinder it pretty much touching the rods with this kit so I couldn't imagine any larger big bore kits for this engine.

[sirmaxwell]

Originally Posted by Themanoz

The cc improvement may not be much, but my guess is the new cylinder race head makes more of an improvement than the bore. It comes with a more aggressively timed cam and roller rocker arms so it revs up much quicker. Also, the piston that comes with the big bore kit has much higher compression than the stock one; it has a more convex shape to it. There's not much more room for a larger bore due to the rods holding the cylinder and head in place. The steel lining of the cylinder it pretty much touching the rods with this kit so I couldn't imagine any larger big bore kits for this engine.

Yeah I agree it ould easily make loads more noticeable power--Even with my calculations that's still over a 10% increase in displacement plus if it has higher compression it can make more power plus a better camshaft can make a better power xurve across the rpm range with the new kit and like I said before perhaps the race head does add the neccesary cc to make it a 146cc. I hope to be able to afford it...some day.

Thanks for the tip on the carb!! . Too bad about the block off plate being needed--I hope that isnt too hard. I wonder if people are easily making their own block off plates or buying them hopefully cheap?

[sirmaxwell]

Originally Posted by Themanoz

The cc improvement may not be much, but my guess is the new cylinder race head makes more of an improvement than the bore. It comes with a more aggressively timed cam and roller rocker arms so it revs up much quicker. Also, the piston that comes with the big bore kit has much higher compression than the stock one; it has a more convex shape to it. There's not much more room for a larger bore due to the rods holding the cylinder and head in place. The steel lining of the cylinder it pretty much touching the rods with this kit so I couldn't imagine any larger big bore kits for this engine.

I really appreciate your original post on this subject, as well as additional info and replies to my wuestions so far on this thread--so thanks for all that!!

I may have been a little harsh when calling the stock Vader carb complete junk because mine actually does work, but it is probably on the small side of what could be placed on an engine this size, especially as you add performance parts sucj as free flow exhaust etc., and the stock carb is jetted way towards lean for emissions purposes. Other than that the only problems I have had remotely with the stock carb is maybe also like you said with the choke not seeming to do much plus I get intermittent fuel delivery issues that actually seem to be getting better as the breaki-in progresses and the bike gets some more miles--but the fuel delivery problems I'm having seem to be something to do with the emissions system since if I suck air out of the vent that comes out near the right handlebar after the bike stalls or is having a start issue due to lean fuel delivery-- then the fuel delivery goes back to fine and that may be due to a faulty emissions valve or crimped emissions line somewhere--so Im not sure that has anything to directly do with the carb.--just thought I would throw that little update to say Maybe the factory carb was just made to pass emissions and isn't Quite as shitty as I originally stated.

Anyhow, I wrote Tbolt a lengthy message including asking if I can use their "146cc" kit, like you linked above, just by itself and then do things like add a head or cam or exhaust later and all Tbolt said back was that they understand their big bore kit part number: TBW9067 "146cc" does fit my Vader. and that's all they said even though I asked a lot more.

I'm still wondering if I can get just the big bore piston/cylinder/ring/gaskets and install that by itself and put on more performance parts later...? Or is that a bad idea for reasons like I don't know maybe it's bad for reliability? Do you also need a bigger head at the same time? I do understand that adding a better head would make it perform better but is it really needed to be put on at the same time as the Big Bore puston/cylinder if you're on a budget or if you want to do one mod at a time to see what that mod does to your performance by itself.... Or would i be screwing myself over and breaking my engine by putting on only the BBK piston/cylinder by itself?

The kit you said you put on looks sweet--but it's also wha?-- $549??!! whereas just the piston and cylinder part of the same Big Bore Kit that you linked above and I just mentioned the part number of the 141cc kit is only $149!! -- a full $400 more for the kit you installed that gains you mostly the race head, but also a cam complete with the new timing sprocket and new rocker arms and new covers and new bolts and even the alan key wrenches to piece the new head on... Which raises another wuestion--could I get a similarly performing head and camshaft for less than $400? I mean don't get me wrong, the $549 kit looks sweet, seems like it fits and the new head works with the new cylinder/piston with complaints that I have seen...BUT at the price of $549 I start thinking MAYBE going with a larger, faster crate engine with more torque and horsepower, whether new or used, is starting to look better than the expensive bore kit for that price. Im thinking if I can find a decent head and cam for $150 OR less to add to the $150 BBK cylinder/piston--THEN the Big Bore Kit still looks attractive to me, still lets me tinker with my bike and still lets me say I had more of a hand in upgrading my bike than just dropping in a crate engine--In My Dumb Little Opinion.

Does anyone know of a more reasonably priced head and/or cam for the Boom Vader to compliment going with the TBolt BBK that's listed "141" or "146"ccs?

Also does anyone have any knowledge of other engines that will fit the Vader as an easy or direct bolt on engine upgrade other than the z190 that seems to be common on here? just wondering, and I would like any suggestions but specifically i am wondering about something on the cheap because this Vader was always meant to be something of a cheap project where i get a new, light, bike that's meant to be worked on and upgraded instead of just getting a ready to go used Ninja 250cc for the same price--that's what the Vader is for me

& As always, have fun, and ride safe!

[Whisky]

You would be better off going with the zs190. It's a 5 speed.

[wheelbender6]

Many riders prefer the tinkering involved in adding a big block kit over installing a crate motor. To each his own.

[Whisky]

Buying a China bike will get you plenty of tinkering.

[wlfpck]

Question is do they stamp the head with the new engine size?

I believe in California, as part of CARB, for your inspection, they check that the engine matches the VIN on the frame.

If that's the case, this maybe the only option for people living in California since that means the ZS190cc is out of the question.

And with these having pit bike engines... if you get enough power with the bore kit... could probably run 17/32 for front and rear sprocket. Plenty of people already run 17/34 as a 125cc.