what to get? Entry level dirt bike
 

Hey guys, I'm new here! I've been reading through the forums and would appreciate some advice.

For the last year and half or so my 2 kids (boy- age 13 1/2 & girl age 16) have been riding the 3 acres field/partially wooded area around my house. They currently ride a couple fun little pit bikes running lawn mower engines and automatic clutch.

Well, they are ready to move up to something bigger, but as they are still newish riders I wanted to move them up to something midway between the pit bikes and something faster and more powerful and give them something they can learn to shift gears with.

I found the "rps hawk" and the "x-pro hawk dlx" and thought that they looked perfect. From what I've seen they appear to essentially be the same, or at least have the same engine, although while I like the idea of the fuel injection on the x-pro hawk dlx, I'm seeing that the rps hawk-x comes in a counter balanced frame (I'm assuming that's a good thing?).


I'm looking for advice on if this is a good option? My kids are about 5'8" & 5'10" tall currently. Would I be better off with one over the other? Or should I consider something else entirely? I plan to get one each for both kids, and figure that this will be something we keep a couple of years until they are ready to upgrade and will not likely invest heavily into mods.

In a perfect world, I'd like to spend no more than $2000 per bike and am open to buying used, but I haven't seen anything local for near my price point. I am located in Central Arkansas is that makes a difference. Thanks for any input!

Given their height and presumed inseam, I would recommend a shorter and lighter bike than a 250cc. Like this 125cc with 33" seat height and 17" front/14" rear tires. $1300 delivered.

https://www.venommotorsportsusa.com/...39475048710246

Why not get the 125 TominMO suggested for the 13yo son and the Hawk DLX for the 16yo daughter? that way when the son is older he has something to step up to. I predict your daughter will find "other interests" as she matures. Whatever you choose enjoy this time with the young ones, it's fleeting.

I like this plan. :tup:

Or splurge for the Lifan KPX250 so you can have some fun too! Tons of threads on the new bike that all point to positives.

Maybe the younger kid would be able to handle a slightly larger frame with a 5 speed. Apollo RXF 200 (190cc engine). It has 19"/16" wheels, with a 35" seat height. The seat height will compress when he is on it, and probably reach the ground easily.

He is probably growing quickly. This would be more forward thinking. The extra gear will be useful.

Personally I like the original plan better. If the 13 1/2 year old is 5'8", expect him to be taller than your daughter in another 6 to 8 months. I think I'd go with 2 identical bikes. If one kid gets a larger or more expensive bike, the other is going to feel cheated.

The Hawk 250 and the Apollo 200 are significantly different in a few ways... The Hawk is more of a dual sport, actually lower seat height than the Apollo, and the Apollo is a little more enduro leaning. These are actually well suited for Hers and his bikes. But the Apollo 200 doesn't have lights. Both are 5 speed, and they cost about the same. If the older sister is a more aggressive rider, maybe she would want the Apollo, and the younger brother might prefer the Hawk.

Or they could share until they decide!

Frankly, a good choice for siblings of the opposite sex.

Thanks for all the suggestions I will research each of them. I was looking at the 250 as I was worried about the frame sizes of the others being too small. Also, ironically, my 13 year old son is taller (5'10") than my 16 year old daughter (5'8) he's a football player and probably weighs about 200lbs and at the rate he's growing will likely hit 6' by next spring. Both of my kids have the same amount of riding experience gained from riding the pitt bikes. Also a bit more information, my daughter is infatuated with sport bikes and has wanted one for years and was the reason behind getting the small pitt bikes in the first place. My guess is that she will want to move up from the intro dirt bike within a few years to something roadworthy but would likely keep the dirt bikes for them to have fun riding around my property. The idea getting an enduro or dual sport bike would serve to help bridge the gap between the pitt bike and something she would be able to take out on the road and let them learn to use a clutch and shift. I like the idea of having at least a headlight and tail light, but do not envision these bikes being licensed to take out on the road (although it might be nice to have that option later on). Thanks again for the recommendations! I have some homework to do!

definitely the 250. I have a son who's 5'10". He manages the Hawk's size fine. He's older, but from a weight/height perspective, it will fit him.

Thanks for all the input! It's been helpful.

I'm really leaning toward getting matching bikes in different colors so (as magician16 pointed out) one doesn't feel cheated if one bike is perceived as better than the other. I don't think the size of the Hawk 250 will be an issue for my 13yr old 5'10" son, but should I have any concerns for the 16yr old 5'8" daughter? Are there any easy mods to lower the seat if necessary? Should I have any concerns about the weight of the bike being around 280lbs?

The Apollo RXF 200 looks like a strong contender, but for the same money I could get either the rps hawk or x-pro hawk with fuel injection and would have lights.

The more I think about it, the less it would need to be street legal so long as it has a headlight & taillight. In your opinion is the "rps hawk" and the "x-pro hawk" basically the exact same bike? Or is one better than the other? From the dealers I've looked at (all not in my state) it appears I could have one dropped shipped to my door pretty quickly.

I do like the price tag on the suggested VENOM THUNDER | 125CC suggested by TomInMo but worry about it looking and/or feeling small to a teenager that is wanting to move up to a 'full size' bike. Does anyone have experience with this bike and would the smaller engine have enough power with a 200+lbs rider?

And lastly, is their any dealer(s) you've had a great experience with in the US that I should check out before ordering? If I end up ordering, it will be a Christmas present, any chance of big sales before the end of the year such as Black Friday? Can I expect the prices to fall any further as the riding season ends and cooler weather sets in?

Thanks again for all the discussion, it's been very helpful!

I would go down the route of getting 2 of the same bike...If the Daughter is keen to get on the road and not far off legal licensing age requirements then getting a street legal dual-sport might be the better long term choice...

the reasoning behind getting 2 of the same bike is parts interchangeability and 'spares'

I'm about 200pounds 5.9ft and the CG250 does not want to flip me over nor would it weigh much more than a 200c..

the basic hawk250 is the budget benchmark.

The Templar 250 X or M is hitting 6speed road leaning / 5 speed dirt leaning IMO hits the price sweetspot

The KPX250 is another step up across the price/features

after that your getting into used jap bikes...

If both teens already have riding experience I'd say they'd grow out of the 125/150cc range in a growth spurt and feel wanting...

To really add to the mix, you might want to check out the Lifan X-pect. Higher quality bike that EFI and has a 2 year part warranty. https://www.venommotorsportsusa.com/...bike-lf200gy-4

Height will definitely not be a problem for your son; he'll probably be 6" by Christmas anyway. I have short legs for my height, 29" inseam. I have a hard time with the height of a Hawk which is the reason I have shorter bikes. If your daughter has a 32" or longer inseam, she shouldn't have any problem.


If the Hawk height is too high, a shorter shock in the back(from a Ninja 250 on ebay) and lowering the front by dropping the tubes in the front clamp by an inch or two.

The new hawk 250 is:

RPS New Hawk 250 X DOT Street Legal Enduro Dirt Bike, Balance Shaft Engine hawk x 250
$1,719

Powersportsmax has an Autumn Sale on right now and the top of the line Templar X 250 is just
$1,749 !!!

Right now anyone would be crazy not to spend the just $30 extra and get a top of the line Templar X 250. Full size proper frame, a true 250cc engine versus the Hawk 250, and all those fully adjustable front suspension and fully adjustable rear suspension options and six speed gears and upside down forks, and so on and so on. The new Hawk finally comes with a counterbalanced engine and so does the Templar X 250 but the Hawk motor is smaller / less cc's.

Of course once the Autumn sale is over it will be up close to $1,999 or just under until the next sale whenever that happens in the future.

You can get two just different colors if you want, then the kids only get jealous over a sticker color. Thumper and others on here have already posted how you can lower these Templar X 250's if you need to and then when the kids get bigger you can put them back up to normal size so you have something they can grow into.

Maybe Thumper can post the height after his lowering modification after sitting on the bike and putting preload on the rear shock to see how much approximate leg length is needed to flat foot? I am 6' and 32" inseam and have no problems on the normal size Templar X 250 as it comes out of the box but kids will be shorter than I am. The way you get on these bikes is to step up on to the foot peg and then throw your leg over, plenty of room and when you are up on the seat the rear shock compresses and I easily touch the ground.

I miss the days of really cheap Hawk 250 prices but today it just makes zero sense with the higher prices.

Photo captures:

A manny store which will put some people here off

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...960&height=572


and



Powersportsmax


https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...960&height=532

Not sure what the basic Hawk 250 is but it has to be under $1400 to make it viable, the new EFI or counter balanced X version are just not competitive and a hard pass compared to any Templar...

Doesn't PowerSportsMax charge shipping though? check that closely. some places ship free, others not, which allows them to show lower prices. be sure to look at TOTAL cost.

That is true, but also consider if you ever were going to upgrade the motorcycle and with the hawk that is going to happen to most owners, you would have to spend far in excess of the shipping at powersportsmax to bring a hawk 250 up to the same features and quality of the Templar so its unfortunately not an apples to apples comparison.... its a hawk to a templar comparison :hehe: ... or a manny store to not a manny store comparison, whatever criteria someone as the buyer would have to go through everything and chose either depending on their analysis. Oh and another consideration is if you live in a ultra strict DMV state or a relaxed state for MCO, and you definitely want powersportsmax to make sure it says motorcycle on the MCO description entry, unless you are riding them off road only in which case its not a care.

I've been looking more at the X-Pro Templar X and am really starting to lean that way even without the EFI.

As Texas Pete shared they have a fall sale going on where I can get it for $1749.95. Unfortunately as Sport Rider pointed out, they do indeed charge delivery which appears to be about $300 which brings the price back up the same as many of the other options i've been looking at.

I don't know what a manny store is, so someone will need to loop me in on that.

From what you guys have shared here, the Templar X is the superior bike in both build and performance correct? (At least when comparing the Templar X & the X-Pro Hawk DLX & RPS Hawk motorcycles.
I like that the Templar X has the counter balanced engine & has the 6th gear and I've read that the Templar X has fully adjustable forks and Shock. As I shared previously I was really leaning toward getting something with Fuel Injection just for basic ease of use, but from what i've read the carbs aren't that bad and if I needed to do an upgrade on the Templar X, it would be a straight forward process.

So is the consensus that the Templar is the better option even without Fuel Injection?

Other than the items mentioned above are all other components basically the same in terms of quality?

I saw another post stating that the suspension is a weak point on the Templar, but I figure that this probably holds true for all of the bikes at this price point.



X-Pro Templar X | 250CC Dirt Bike | Carburetor
$1749.95 (and $300 shipping)
Has all lights | 6-speed manual transmission| Electric Start| 21"/18" wheels | Zongshen Brand Engine | Counter Balanced Engine
36.2" seat height | 57.9" wheel base (89"L x 34.6"W x 55.5"H) | 258lbs dry
https://www.powersportsmax.com/produ...ducts_id/23812


X-Pro Hawk DLX 250 | 229cc | Fuel Injection | 5 speed | 21"/18" wheels
$1949.95 with (potentially) free shipping
$2098 fully assembled.
Has all lights| 5-speed manual transmission | Electric/Kick Start | 21"/18" wheels
36 inches seat height | 54" wheel base (size 84"L x 32"W x 55"H) | 280lbs dry

https://txpowersports.com/New-hawk-D...p/hawk-dlx.htm
https://txpowersports.com/New-hawk-D...-assembled.htm


I looked at the suggested Lifan KPX250, and really liked it. It appeared to check all the "would like to have" marks. However the price and is $1000 more than the other options.

Would the Lifan x-pect be worth considering, it does has EFI but only 19"/17" wheels and the x-pro version is about $1600. (Not sure what the shipping would be)

LIFAN X-PECT | 200CC DUAL SPORT MOTORCYCLE | FUEL INJECTED | 5 SPEED | 19"/17" wheels
$2,199.99 Comes with 2-YEAR LIFAN WARRANTY (INCLUDED)
https://www.venommotorsportsusa.com/...bike-lf200gy-4

X-Pro X-Pect | 200cc | Fuel Injected | 5 Speed | 19"/17" wheels
$1599.95
https://www.powersportsmax.com/produ...ducts_id/22137

You are learning what you need to know.

Don't count out Templar M ($1550 at PSM, plus shipping), which has the simpler 5 speed version of the 249cc Zongshen engine- (ZS172-FMM-3A). This makes the same horsepower (~19hp) as the 6 speed 249cc engine.

The Temp M does not have fully adjustable suspension, but you can change to heavier fork oil to stiffen the action, and shim the springs for more preload. Rear shock does have preload adjustability.

This is $350 lower price than the Temp X.

I acutally sold my 6 speed X and stuck with the original 5 speed 2022 Templar X. I like the engine.

You might think of this as a Hawk (14hp) with more enduro leaning geometry and a more powerful engine (19hp).

rithac:

Do a search on this forum for 'Manny dealerships'. You will learn A LOT, and none of it good.

JerryHawk250, and many others, speak highly of Venom Motorsports. I have no interaction with them, but I trust the numerous positive reviews I've read. I would much rather deal with a dealership that treats me right (ie doesn't screw me over) and has a supply of replacement parts.

As for what to buy, I have a financial philosophy.
- Buy once, cry once, get exactly what I want, even if it costs me a bit more up front.
This ends up saving me $$ short and long term. If the item I'm evaluating hits all of my criteria, I will keep it.
If it doesn't meet all of my criteria but is cheaper, I may not be completely satisfied and will kick myself for not spending a bit more up front. This also leads to me dumping $$ into improvements, which often outweighs the initial savings. Or worst case I hate the thing altogether, sell it at a loss, and buy what I initially wanted (costing me time and money).
In the case of China bikes, the resale value really isn't the best. Finding a buyer for a CSC TT250 or a Templar is a lot different than a Kawasaki or Honda in large part due to name recognition.


I hope all this makes sense. I know it doesn't answer your questions, but I hope it provides some guidance.

just to keep the confusion going..... :D

The 6 speed trans comes into play because of the improved top-end speed on roads. I'm not sure this is a necessity since this is for the kids. However, the other aspects of the Templar X (or M) motor is good. True 250 and slightly more power. However, power isn't a critical factor, again, because it's for the kids. The could have plenty of fun on the 229's too. It really depends on how important price is to you. The 229s are competent and you won't go wrong with those either.

If you're looking farther into the future with the kids having fun on the bikes long term, go Templar.

As for Manny....don't buy from any of the sites that are in the Arlington TX area. Check with us to confirm. I've not bought from Venom, but they have a good reputation here. buying my hawk was so long ago, I don't even remember who I bought it from. :)

Just swapping hats to argue for the KPX. It doesn't I think from Venom have shipping so would it still be $1000 more?


Now these are my thoughts on EFI:


EFI buys you nothing but cold start convenience if we are all truthful.


EFI on cars is direct cylinder injection. EFI on motorcycles is just simple port injection as in you gain nothing over using a carburetor performance or benefit wise. Its just a carb body with an injector screwed into it. It sprays mist and that gets sucked along with air into the air intake manifold just like a carburetor delivers the fuel. No difference. No direct cylinder metered injection.



The early EFI Harley-Davidsons... :p everyone that owned one was ripping out the EFI and putting back on the old style carburetors because the EFI had propblems and the early EFI Harleys were burning through more fuel than the old style carburetors did.


Once you try and modify your bike, and that's if you modify your bike. Then EFI becomes a hindrance rather than a help. Get new exhaust or modify or replace the air intake, now you need to reprogram new fueling maps for the EFI. First does your EFI support reprogramming. Second does the EFI have a programming tool available that works with it. Third can you afford the hundreds of dollars involved in buying special tools and special cables or adapters to plug into your EFI? Fourth are there any fueling maps already available for your bike and the parts you swapped out on your bike that you can base your initial tuning on or do you have to green fields the whole new EFI map and do lots of testing?



Are you good at troubleshooting computers/electronics on top of troubleshooting mechanical systems?\You are going have to get good if you want to maintain your bike over the long term. You need to be able to troubleshoot false signals. Code says its the O2 sensor, could end up not being the O2 sensor but a wire that's corroded or nicked or shorted out. Carburetors once you learn them are logical troubleshooting hardware. If symptom is X then you look at Y to fix it. EFI can turn into spaghetti troubleshooting.



But also don't read me wrong, if nothing goes wrong, EFI is awesome. Its when it does or when you want to do something other than stock OEM setup.



Carburetors you need to treat them right. I don't turn my bike off and call it done after a ride. I leave the engine running, turn off the fuel pet cock to closed and let the engine continue to run while I get out of my gear. Soon the bike runs through the fuel in the float bowl and the engine dies. I then turn the bike off. Knock on wood I have never had an issue with it to date no matter how much time goes by in-between rides.

An adult may have reasons to spend more for the perfect bike, with every desired feature. Kids are much more flexible and can learn about their bikes working on them. They will be very happy with a good bike, and WHEN they break it, it won't be as big of a deal if you choose a less expensive model!

They will get that with ALL of these bikes, including the more expensive ones. Look around on this site, and even the more expensive models have failures, need maintenance and work now and then.

People have been tuning carbs for decades. It is not rocket science. And you are not stuck with the lean running conditions of the stock enrichment curve. Nothing wrong with a carbed Chinese bike.

ALSO regarding the Zongshen engines (also applies to Loncin, Lifan, depending on the model)- The 229cc ZS engines are pushrod valve actuated. The 249cc ZS engines have overhead cams. Both styles are dependable, OHC are more efficient and powerful. OHC heads suffer less valve lash variation due to heat expansion. But adjusting valves is a useful skill to have. Your kids can both learn how to do this.

Texas Pete:
Looks like my numbers were off on the KPX, I started filling out the form and saw that shipping would be calculated in a later step and did not realize it was free. Price listed at Venom is $2,899.99 (with free shipping) so that does close the gap a bit, but even so, since I plan to purchase 2.. budget wise I just can't move up to that price range even though I'd like to. I don't see the Templar listed on the Venom site.

Also thanks for the explanation of how the efi on these bikes work, it makes me feel better about not having it, especially considering that i'll probably jump on the "upgrade to Nibbi PWK30" carb bandwagon.

Thumper:
I'm leaning toward the Templar X over the M for the adjustable forks and shocks. The 6th gear also weighs in for my kids to have room to 'grow' with it.

Hunnicutt/Sport Rider
I'm currently offering the deal at powersportsmax.com, but if I need to check out other dealers i'm more than willing, they just have one of the better prices i've found on the Templar X currently $1749.95 (although with the addition of $300 for shipping on top of that) https://www.powersportsmax.com/produ...ducts_id/23812
I've checkout out amazon ($1949 & $400 shipping) & walmart ($1998 & then tax, but free shipping), https://xprousa.com/ has it for 2,171.00 and with free shipping.

I'm not really finding the Templar X many other places. I had been looking at options at txpowersports.com, but they don't have the Templar, and I'm not sure what the RPS equivalent would be, so I haven't really looked at that option. Also, i'm now afraid to browse dealers in Texas in case they might be a Manny dealer. :-)

I like that venommotorsportsusa.com has been recommended here, but it appears that do not carry the Templar, but rather the pricier/better KPX.

FWIW, I think "different" is more accurate than "better"

As I mentioned, ALL of these bikes are prone to an issue or two :)

These issues are documented here, but rest assured, there is some random component failure across the board :tup:

The Templar X at the current discount is the best deal going on...consider it as free shipping.

If the bike has no intention of ever going on road then save a few dollars and get an M 5 speed...

As Texas Pete said EFI gets you cold starts with out chokes or fettling...
but you get more electrical complexity and things like possible pump and sensor failures...is it worth the premium, over a simple carburetor...IMO no.

If you get 2 bikes from the same distributor surely there would be a combined shipping discount?

when the basic hawk was like a $1000 bike on Amazon it was the deal of the time...
since then the economy changed...

as a package the Templar X or M I believe is now the best bang for buck...

All of which are not available to me because I live in Australia...but the some of the china bike parts can rub off on my old Honda Xl185...

rithac: Txpowersports is a Manny company. I bought my Magician from there before I was ever on this site. FYI the 30MM Nibbi is too big, the 28MM is the right size. Personally, I think the stock carbs work fine. You will need to rejet them depending on your altitude, but that's pretty simple.

The X-Pect is a great bike in my opinion and well worth considering for your daughter. Especially if you can get it for around $1700.00. Lifan warrants their EFI for two years if I remember correctly but warranty service might be up to the Seller which could be an issue getting it fulfilled.


China bikes are a gamble no matter how you cut um. Mostly seems to be metal issues with valves etc. No doubt Lifan quality is a cut above the HAWK, TBR7, etc. I don't know about the Templar as I have never had one.


The X-Pect with 19 inch front and 17 inch rear rides much like a street bike and is therefore very nimble and proficient to ride on the street. In stock configuration it can do the dual sport thing but with the stock tires it is really more of a street bike.


The biggest issue is the odd tire size, which favors a street tire.


I think it the perfect "street trainer bike" as it has low seat height and street manners it is very forgiving.


If your daughter does not like it, then in a couple of years it could be sold with minimal loss in your investment. Once your daughter gets the hang of the clutch in two months, she is going to want to ride on the road and at 16 an eligible age that might be a battle. Once they start riding the "big" bikes every thing is going to accelerate! Good motorcycle training at the beginning is key.

I thought I'd give an update to what I ended up getting. I did go with the Templar X 250 from PSM. I know some of you also weighed in on my other post, but thought I'd put an update here as well in case anyone finds this thread later on and was wondering.

If you'd like information as to the condition they arrived in (very good) you can see my other post where I included a few pictures of the crates and early unboxing shots at
https://www.chinariders.net/showthre...810#post402810