Engine shut off while downshifting - Page 4

kumatae · 11-10-2016, 03:30 PM

So I emailed Gerry regarding this stalling issue and received a not so encouraging email. He stated that I should be fueling high octane 91 fuel from a name brand station (i've been using costco) even though owner's manual states 87 octane or higher. He also says fuel filter needs to be replaced every 10,000 miles but again, there is no statement in the owner's manual that says it ever needs replacing. He made it sound like I was a negligent owner and not doing my due diligence as if I was supposed to know it all. Whatevers, I'll do a valve clearance and see what happens.

2LZ · 11-10-2016, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kumatae

So I emailed Gerry regarding this stalling issue and received a not so encouraging email. He stated that I should be fueling high octane 91 fuel from a name brand station (i've been using costco) even though owner's manual states 87 octane or higher. He also says fuel filter needs to be replaced every 10,000 miles but again, there is no statement in the owner's manual that says it ever needs replacing. He made it sound like I was a negligent owner and not doing my due diligence as if I was supposed to know it all. Whatevers, I'll do a valve clearance and see what happens.

Usually the stalling issue starts far earlier than 10,000 miles. I've basically attributed it to the system being in open loop because it usually only happens in the first 10 minutes of riding.
I'd be curious to see if the guys changing to hotter stats have any stalling issues. Maybe the bike doesn't run quite hot enough to keep it in closed loop all the time?....or right on the border??

pyoungbl · 11-10-2016, 05:22 PM

2LZ, mine does not stall. I'm running the higher temp thermostat and Iridium plug. I'm running 87 octane. Personally, I cannot understand how higher octane figures into this problem (or carbon build-up either). The name brand idea sounds interesting until you see that the same truck is delivering to COSTCO and EXXON. The additive package might be a bit different but not by much. Furthermore, lots of studies have shown that buying higher octane fuel is a waste of money unless the engine needs it due to higher compression or turbo. Gerry has years of experience so I'm not about to call BS, just that I do not understand the reasoning.

Peter Y.

2LZ · 11-14-2016, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pyoungbl

2LZ, mine does not stall. I'm running the higher temp thermostat and Iridium plug. I'm running 87 octane. Personally, I cannot understand how higher octane figures into this problem (or carbon build-up either). The name brand idea sounds interesting until you see that the same truck is delivering to COSTCO and EXXON. The additive package might be a bit different but not by much. Furthermore, lots of studies have shown that buying higher octane fuel is a waste of money unless the engine needs it due to higher compression or turbo. Gerry has years of experience so I'm not about to call BS, just that I do not understand the reasoning.

Peter Y.

I'm wondering if this whole stalling thing could be because of the cooler stat? Thanks for the heads up. It'l be good to hear from other "hotter stat" guys also.

I'm with you on the octane, basically. It's just out of years of habit more than anything that I run my bikes and yard tools on premium.

Other than the hot rods and high strung 2 strokes I've run in my younger years, I've noticed zero difference in running the different fuels in modern vehicles. I will say this for absolute positive though. Both my Jeep Patriot and our Challenger do run better and have more spunk with mid grade. It's definitely noticeable. It jumps both almost 2 mpg also. The Challenger actually recommends mid grade. though The Patriot recommends regular.....but even my car pool partner (nice gal, knows nothing about cars and has an identical Patriot) said after I filled with mid grade, "What did you do to your Jeep? I don't have to push on the pedal as far as mine to get going." If she noticed a difference, that let me know I wasn't dreaming.

katflap · 11-24-2016, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2LZ

I'm wondering if this whole stalling thing could be because of the cooler stat? Thanks for the heads up. It'l be good to hear from other "hotter stat" guys also.

Yep, I think so too.

Since fitting the hotter stat, stalling issues that I had in the past have all but gone. Only occasionally will it now stall when the engine is still quite cold or has just dropped down from its fast idle after initially starting the engine.

Before, with the cool stat, I noticed that if just cruising the coolant temp could drop well below 52c but still show 2 bars on the temp gauge. The engine would often stall pulling up to the same junction on my commute to work

The "bar" temp Gauge gives a temperature range at best. Its close to useless.

I don't think the engine management system works well at these low temps and is much better once a decent temp is reached and maintained

pyoungbl · 11-27-2016, 02:05 PM

Other bikes in my stable (Ducati, Guzzi) always benefitted from running at 190-200F. The ECU mapping had the engines running very rich when cold and that richness dropped off as the engines came up to operating temp. If I rode into rain the engine temp would usually fall quite quickly, due to evaporation, and the ECU would then go into the rich range again. This resulted in really crappy fuel mileage on rainy days, important to know on a trip when you are counting on a normal tank range and suddenly the tank is going dry at 70% of what expected. BTDT. I suspect the Zong has this same logic, running rich when the ECU thinks it's cold. Joe has lots of experience riding the RX3 under those conditions. I'd love to hear his comments.

Peter Y.

jbfla · 11-27-2016, 06:50 PM

To add some info:

My Rx3 experienced stalling only on the first day I rode it.

It hasn't stalled since (8,000 miles).

Don't think the thermostat is the problem.

I did install the 90C thermostat, but did so in order to possibly burn off excessive crankcase gases.

FYI: The thermostat on my water cooled Triumph Bonneville is 88C (190F).

jb

fjmartin · 11-27-2016, 06:54 PM

Mine stalled twice recently and that's the only two times it's occurred in the 1900 miles it has on it. First time was on the center stand running it after a wash. I had started it and put it in gear to lube the chain and warm it up to burn off the water. After revving the engine to 4K for a bit I just let go of the throttle and it shut down. Second time it was cold outside and I had just started the bike and almost immediately rolled out of my drive and up the road to the stop sign and let go of the throttle and it died. Thermo is stock. I'll just let it warm up a bit more before I roll out from now on.

RedHawk47 · 11-27-2016, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbfla

To add some info:
My Rx3 experienced stalling only on the first day I rode it.
It hasn't stalled since (8,000 miles).
jb

My KTM 950 Adventure stalled every time I pulled up to a stop, for the first 1000 miles. Turning the idle up reduced the stalling. I blamed the stalling on a tight engine, which loosened up with the break-in.

2LZ · 11-28-2016, 10:47 AM

I let my brother in law take the RX3 out on Thanksgiving while he was up visiting. It's the first time it's ran in a month. I warmed it in the garage for a few minutes, he got on, rolled to the end of the driveway and it stalled. After it warmed up, no problems after that. It has to be the transition while warming that's either confusing the ECM or maybe the ECM is too slow in reacting with the IAC or whatever other idling system that this may have.

Gribouille · 11-29-2016, 11:31 AM

Hi all...I had so many issues with this stalling business that I ended up returning the bike and asked for a full refund as I was fed up with all sorts of possible reasons and repairs done by the dealer. I enjoyed the bike fully when i didn't have to slow down or stop at a traffic lights etc...as the stalling would occur there and then but then everyone has to stop from time to time !!!...So I asked another dealer to check the issue and he told me that the throttle body and the injectors needed to be replaced...I decided that I wanted to enjoy a motorbike and not to dread its unpredictable behavior...so glad I got rid of it ...I know some of you are great mechanics and able to do all sorts with your bikes but I am not technical enough to carry on riding this nightmare of a Honley. Currently looking at better bike options and a better way to obtain parts...Thanks to this marvelous group and support you all provide...Enjoy your ride and bye for now..

)

kumatae · 12-04-2016, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gribouille

Hi all...I had so many issues with this stalling business that I ended up returning the bike and asked for a full refund as I was fed up with all sorts of possible reasons and repairs done by the dealer. I enjoyed the bike fully when i didn't have to slow down or stop at a traffic lights etc...as the stalling would occur there and then but then everyone has to stop from time to time !!!...So I asked another dealer to check the issue and he told me that the throttle body and the injectors needed to be replaced...I decided that I wanted to enjoy a motorbike and not to dread its unpredictable behavior...so glad I got rid of it ...I know some of you are great mechanics and able to do all sorts with your bikes but I am not technical enough to carry on riding this nightmare of a Honley. Currently looking at better bike options and a better way to obtain parts...Thanks to this marvelous group and support you all provide...Enjoy your ride and bye for now..

)

You made the right choice. I would have if I were in your shoes. So I did the valve check and made some adjustments and it sort of solved the issue. I didn't have time to run to CSC to grab a fuel filter to make sure that wasn't the issue. Engine did shut off once last week in the afternoon and as always it's within first five minutes but I'll take that over what I was facing. I now down shift very carefully and let the clutch out sort of let the engine slow me down. And yeah I agree with the others about using higher end gas and octane. Not the issue.

kumatae · 12-14-2016, 01:14 PM

As I've been troubleshooting with Gerry from CSC, he told me to perform a compression check. I also mentioned to him that I'm having issues with starting as well. I need to use the throttle when starting and when my bike stalls when downshifting, it takes a while to get the engine back started. Anyways, back to the compression check, I registered 50PSI and he said, I should have seen 90PSI. So he wants to replace the engine. I rode it this morning and I find it hard to believe that something is wrong with the bike because it runs so well but I'm sure he knows best. I'm probably going to do a valve check one last time to make sure it's not user error and I'm pretty sure its not, but we shall see. Also, I'm pretty lucky that I'm only 30 miles from CSC so I could possibly drop off and pick up my engine and have minimal downtime as I use the bike to commute and recently sold my car. Currently looking for a back up bike.

2LZ · 12-14-2016, 01:20 PM

Wow, a motor. That's not very common. I can't help but think that the valves are too tight on such a fresh motor. These things are supposed to be workhorses. Good thing you're close to them.

fjmartin · 12-14-2016, 02:27 PM

I started having issues with mine cutting off. First it was when it was cold and then when I was on a group offroad ride it cut off a bunch of times when I reached a gathering point and pulled in the clutch and released the throttle. I adjusted the valves and found that the exhaust valves were tight but the intakes were perfect. Now adjusted I haven't had a cutoff. Valves adjusted at 500 miles and again at 2000ish. 2000 is the time when it was cutting out. At 2200 miles now with no cut off. Not a ton but a decent indication.

11-27-2016, 06:50 PM	#52
jbfla Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: FL, GA, NC Posts: 771	To add some info: My Rx3 experienced stalling only on the first day I rode it. It hasn't stalled since (8,000 miles). Don't think the thermostat is the problem. I did install the 90C thermostat, but did so in order to possibly burn off excessive crankcase gases. FYI: The thermostat on my water cooled Triumph Bonneville is 88C (190F). jb __________________ 2016 Honda CB500F......2017 Triumph Street Twin 2014 XT 250........
	0

11-27-2016, 06:54 PM	#53
fjmartin Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: Redmond, WA. Posts: 534	Mine stalled twice recently and that's the only two times it's occurred in the 1900 miles it has on it. First time was on the center stand running it after a wash. I had started it and put it in gear to lube the chain and warm it up to burn off the water. After revving the engine to 4K for a bit I just let go of the throttle and it shut down. Second time it was cold outside and I had just started the bike and almost immediately rolled out of my drive and up the road to the stop sign and let go of the throttle and it died. Thermo is stock. I'll just let it warm up a bit more before I roll out from now on. __________________ 2017 BMW F800GS Adventure
	0

11-28-2016, 10:47 AM	#55
2LZ Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Volcano, Ca Posts: 7,065	I let my brother in law take the RX3 out on Thanksgiving while he was up visiting. It's the first time it's ran in a month. I warmed it in the garage for a few minutes, he got on, rolled to the end of the driveway and it stalled. After it warmed up, no problems after that. It has to be the transition while warming that's either confusing the ECM or maybe the ECM is too slow in reacting with the IAC or whatever other idling system that this may have. __________________ "Light a fire for a man, and you heat him for a day. Light a man on fire, and you heat him for the rest of his life." 2007 Suzuki DRZ400S (SM convert) 2009 Q Link XP 200 1967 BSA B25 250cc Starfire 2022 Royal Enfield Interceptor 650 2023 Royal Enfield Scram 411 1948 Royal Enfield Model G 350
	0

11-29-2016, 11:31 AM	#56
Gribouille Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: Uk Posts: 2	Hi all...I had so many issues with this stalling business that I ended up returning the bike and asked for a full refund as I was fed up with all sorts of possible reasons and repairs done by the dealer. I enjoyed the bike fully when i didn't have to slow down or stop at a traffic lights etc...as the stalling would occur there and then but then everyone has to stop from time to time !!!...So I asked another dealer to check the issue and he told me that the throttle body and the injectors needed to be replaced...I decided that I wanted to enjoy a motorbike and not to dread its unpredictable behavior...so glad I got rid of it ...I know some of you are great mechanics and able to do all sorts with your bikes but I am not technical enough to carry on riding this nightmare of a Honley. Currently looking at better bike options and a better way to obtain parts...Thanks to this marvelous group and support you all provide...Enjoy your ride and bye for now..)
	1

12-14-2016, 01:20 PM	#59
2LZ Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Volcano, Ca Posts: 7,065	Wow, a motor. That's not very common. I can't help but think that the valves are too tight on such a fresh motor. These things are supposed to be workhorses. Good thing you're close to them. __________________ "Light a fire for a man, and you heat him for a day. Light a man on fire, and you heat him for the rest of his life." 2007 Suzuki DRZ400S (SM convert) 2009 Q Link XP 200 1967 BSA B25 250cc Starfire 2022 Royal Enfield Interceptor 650 2023 Royal Enfield Scram 411 1948 Royal Enfield Model G 350
	1

11-10-2016, 03:30 PM	#46
kumatae Join Date: Oct 2015 Posts: 51	So I emailed Gerry regarding this stalling issue and received a not so encouraging email. He stated that I should be fueling high octane 91 fuel from a name brand station (i've been using costco) even though owner's manual states 87 octane or higher. He also says fuel filter needs to be replaced every 10,000 miles but again, there is no statement in the owner's manual that says it ever needs replacing. He made it sound like I was a negligent owner and not doing my due diligence as if I was supposed to know it all. Whatevers, I'll do a valve clearance and see what happens.
	0

11-10-2016, 05:22 PM	#48
pyoungbl Join Date: Feb 2016 Location: Portsmouth, Virginia, USA Posts: 632	2LZ, mine does not stall. I'm running the higher temp thermostat and Iridium plug. I'm running 87 octane. Personally, I cannot understand how higher octane figures into this problem (or carbon build-up either). The name brand idea sounds interesting until you see that the same truck is delivering to COSTCO and EXXON. The additive package might be a bit different but not by much. Furthermore, lots of studies have shown that buying higher octane fuel is a waste of money unless the engine needs it due to higher compression or turbo. Gerry has years of experience so I'm not about to call BS, just that I do not understand the reasoning. Peter Y.
	2

11-27-2016, 02:05 PM	#51
pyoungbl Join Date: Feb 2016 Location: Portsmouth, Virginia, USA Posts: 632	Other bikes in my stable (Ducati, Guzzi) always benefitted from running at 190-200F. The ECU mapping had the engines running very rich when cold and that richness dropped off as the engines came up to operating temp. If I rode into rain the engine temp would usually fall quite quickly, due to evaporation, and the ECU would then go into the rich range again. This resulted in really crappy fuel mileage on rainy days, important to know on a trip when you are counting on a normal tank range and suddenly the tank is going dry at 70% of what expected. BTDT. I suspect the Zong has this same logic, running rich when the ECU thinks it's cold. Joe has lots of experience riding the RX3 under those conditions. I'd love to hear his comments. Peter Y.
	0

12-14-2016, 01:14 PM	#58
kumatae Join Date: Oct 2015 Posts: 51	As I've been troubleshooting with Gerry from CSC, he told me to perform a compression check. I also mentioned to him that I'm having issues with starting as well. I need to use the throttle when starting and when my bike stalls when downshifting, it takes a while to get the engine back started. Anyways, back to the compression check, I registered 50PSI and he said, I should have seen 90PSI. So he wants to replace the engine. I rode it this morning and I find it hard to believe that something is wrong with the bike because it runs so well but I'm sure he knows best. I'm probably going to do a valve check one last time to make sure it's not user error and I'm pretty sure its not, but we shall see. Also, I'm pretty lucky that I'm only 30 miles from CSC so I could possibly drop off and pick up my engine and have minimal downtime as I use the bike to commute and recently sold my car. Currently looking for a back up bike.
	0

12-14-2016, 02:27 PM	#60
fjmartin Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: Redmond, WA. Posts: 534	I started having issues with mine cutting off. First it was when it was cold and then when I was on a group offroad ride it cut off a bunch of times when I reached a gathering point and pulled in the clutch and released the throttle. I adjusted the valves and found that the exhaust valves were tight but the intakes were perfect. Now adjusted I haven't had a cutoff. Valves adjusted at 500 miles and again at 2000ish. 2000 is the time when it was cutting out. At 2200 miles now with no cut off. Not a ton but a decent indication. __________________ 2017 BMW F800GS Adventure
	2