New guy with a non-runner

Relic · 10-19-2012, 11:31 PM

So, I just picked up a little dirt bike, free, since it doesn't run. And from what I can tell, this is the best place to turn for advice on them!

I snapped a few pics, just to show what I'm workin with...

From what I've researched, I guess it's a 90cc 4 stroke. But I really don't know much about them at all. Most of my experience is with cars, so I've got a steep learning curve ahead of me to get this thing running.

From initial checks, it seems to be getting fuel and spark, but won't actually fire. Any standard, more in depth checks I can do to trace down the issue? Talk to me like a child and I'll figure it out!

Oh yeah, and abuse/neglect may be an issue with it as well. It's got quite a few cracks and bends. Pretty sure it just got beat on when the kid got a newer, bigger bike.

Thanks for any help!

Ian

Weldangrind · 10-20-2012, 01:16 AM

Welcome Ian!

That bike will need a bit of massaging to optimize it, but it'll be worth it.

It's a Honda-cloned 90cc engine in a Yamaha PW80-cloned frame. It's a good mix, except that the Yamaha was designed to have a forward facing air cleaner, and this engine has the air cleaner facing the rear.

My son had a very similar bike, and I bought a 45 degree intake tube and modified the frame to clear it. I then used a pod filter, and it was able to breathe better and not pack the airbox with mud from the back tire. This tube is like the one I used: http://www.ebay.com/itm/24mm-CARBURE...da047d&vxp=mtr You could also just try turning the intake tube around and see if you can fit a small filter on it and clear the front fender.

The exhaust is a major restriction. It's a close copy of the Yamaha exhaust, but the Yamaha is a two stroke; the pipe is totally wrong for a four stroke. Remove the right side panel and you'll see what I mean. BTW, please show us pics of the right side. This exhaust would do the trick: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Exhaust-Pipe...4002a7&vxp=mtr

There are four bolt holes under the engine that are tapped, and they'll mount a complete footpeg / kickstand mount like this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/PIT-DIRT-BIK...item20cb056431 You can cut all of that low clearance junk off.

You can replace that awful shifter with a spring-loaded piece like this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Motocross-Go...1082ab&vxp=mtr

The bike won't run because of dirt in the jets. Remove the carb, remove the float bowl and unscrew the slow jet and main jet. Blast 'em clean with aerosol carb cleaner from Walmart.

Have fun! Parts are cheap as chips, and these bikes really boogie once they're set up.

Relic · 10-20-2012, 02:34 AM

Awesome, thanks for all that! I'll see if I can get the thing running this weekend, and if it all works out, I'll see about breaking the bank on all those high dollar parts you pointed out hahaha.

It could use the pegs and shifter anyways, as they're all mangled or missing right now.

And as for the right side pic, here ya go!

katoranger · 10-20-2012, 12:48 PM

You will probably want to adjust the valves too.

Weldangrind · 10-20-2012, 01:53 PM

That's exactly like the one we had. See how the exhaust pipe comes out of the head and then transitions into an expansion chamber? From there, it necks down to a small pipe and then feeds the muffler. That design is just like the Yamaha two-stroke.

I agree with Kato; the valves will need some love.

FastDoc · 10-21-2012, 02:53 PM

Start here:

http://www.dansmc.com/troubleshooting2.htm

Spark, mixture, compression.

That's the next step.

Remove the spark plug and put your finger over the hole. Push as hard as you can while kicking/cranking the motor. If it can't smartly blow your finger off the hole you have a compression problem.

If that's the case it may be as simple as a tight valve so check those regardless. If that's not the case it may need cylinder/piston or valve work.

IIRC new motors for these are like $200 so no way you can lose money on this deal.

Relic · 10-22-2012, 10:32 AM

Well, I dug into it a little bit yesterday. Gave the carb a good cleaning, though it was pretty spotless inside. I started into the valves, but my feeler gauges have gone missing, so I won't be able to properly check them until I grab a new set. Though there was no visible slop in them. The air filter/box was pretty caked with dirt, but still no fire without it on.

Compression was the 3rd thing on my list to check as well. Though I didn't have the correct adapter for my tester to fit the tiny plug hole. I've been trying to track one down, but got put off for the weekend. I'll see if I can order one today.

These things are definitely a fun way to learn how to work on small engines though! Basically the same as "brand name", but parts are pennies on the dollar :P

Oh, a quick add on. The last rider (a 15 yr old), said it was blowing a lot of smoke before it died. His buddy was actually riding it at the time. Knowing him, I almost suspect that trying to kill it was a fun game, after he got his new bike. Hearing that, kinda leads me more towards piston/rings. But I'm having a bit of fun with this, and it'll be awhile before my son is big enough for it (he's 5), so I'll continue my education and troubleshoot until I find out exactly what's up! Thanks for all the help thus far!!

Weldangrind · 10-22-2012, 10:38 AM

My favourite aspect of these bikes is the ridiculously low parts prices.

To expand your search criteria on eBay, you gotta think like a person who doesn't speak English well, and who might not understand bikes. Search for items like DIRT BIKE MUFFLER, for example. Sometimes I laugh out loud.

I expect that your valves are too tight, and setting them will likely solve the problem. It'll be interesting to hear your observations about how it runs with the stock pipe and airbox, vs any mods that you make. Please let us know.

Relic · 10-22-2012, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weldangrind

My favourite aspect of these bikes is the ridiculously low parts prices.

To expand your search criteria on eBay, you gotta think like a person who doesn't speak English well, and who might not understand bikes. Search for items like DIRT BIKE MUFFLER, for example. Sometimes I laugh out loud.

I expect that your valves are too tight, and setting them will likely solve the problem. It'll be interesting to hear your observations about how it runs with the stock pipe and airbox, vs any mods that you make. Please let us know.

I'll be sure to keep you up to date on anything I do with it. And yes, I have noticed some of the adventurous English used in some of the Chinese auctions haha. Certainly makes shopping fun!

btw, I edited my last post. I did wonder about the valves being too tight, as just for fun, I tried to slide some tin foil between them, and couldn't. But at the same time, I have a hard time believing anyone ever tried to maintain this thing well enough to screw it up!!! hahaha

FastDoc · 10-22-2012, 11:42 AM

Though there was no visible slop in them.

Too tight.

That may explain the non-running due to lack of compression.

Not the smoke though. You may be looking at rings and a cylinder honing.

Might be another $30!

LOL!

Relic · 10-22-2012, 01:17 PM

Hahaha, awesome! It's all good experience. As long as I get it running in the end, I'll be happy.

30 bucks.... hahahaha

Weldangrind · 10-23-2012, 12:04 AM

Here's a twist: if you need a cylinder and piston, you can buy a 110 bore. The 110 shares a crank with the 90.

Relic · 10-23-2012, 08:20 PM

Well, no luck with the valve adjustment. The intake was locked right down tight. The exhaust had some clearance, but very very little. I wasn't sure where to set them, so went with .003".
I guess the last thing on the list is that compression check. Just waiting for a phone call from acklands grainger for when that 10mm/14mm adapter comes in

FastDoc · 10-23-2012, 11:22 PM

That's a safe guess.

To be maybe more percise I'd go by what Honda uses in their little 70 engines this one was cloned from.

It does not appear that was the problem though.

Relic · 10-24-2012, 02:00 AM

I tried to base my adjustment on the Honda, but found a lot of conflicting info online. Anywhere from .002 to .006. So I figured .003 would be on the tighter side of safe, just for troubleshooting.
I'm hoping that adapter will be in tomorrow, so I can check compression with and without a squirt of oil to check the rings

10-19-2012, 11:31 PM	#1
Relic Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Penticton, BC Posts: 25	New guy with a non-runner So, I just picked up a little dirt bike, free, since it doesn't run. And from what I can tell, this is the best place to turn for advice on them! I snapped a few pics, just to show what I'm workin with... From what I've researched, I guess it's a 90cc 4 stroke. But I really don't know much about them at all. Most of my experience is with cars, so I've got a steep learning curve ahead of me to get this thing running. From initial checks, it seems to be getting fuel and spark, but won't actually fire. Any standard, more in depth checks I can do to trace down the issue? Talk to me like a child and I'll figure it out! Oh yeah, and abuse/neglect may be an issue with it as well. It's got quite a few cracks and bends. Pretty sure it just got beat on when the kid got a newer, bigger bike. Thanks for any help! Ian
	0

10-20-2012, 01:16 AM	#2
Weldangrind Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Sardis, BC, Canada Posts: 25,977	Welcome Ian! That bike will need a bit of massaging to optimize it, but it'll be worth it. It's a Honda-cloned 90cc engine in a Yamaha PW80-cloned frame. It's a good mix, except that the Yamaha was designed to have a forward facing air cleaner, and this engine has the air cleaner facing the rear. My son had a very similar bike, and I bought a 45 degree intake tube and modified the frame to clear it. I then used a pod filter, and it was able to breathe better and not pack the airbox with mud from the back tire. This tube is like the one I used: http://www.ebay.com/itm/24mm-CARBURE...da047d&vxp=mtr You could also just try turning the intake tube around and see if you can fit a small filter on it and clear the front fender. The exhaust is a major restriction. It's a close copy of the Yamaha exhaust, but the Yamaha is a two stroke; the pipe is totally wrong for a four stroke. Remove the right side panel and you'll see what I mean. BTW, please show us pics of the right side. This exhaust would do the trick: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Exhaust-Pipe...4002a7&vxp=mtr There are four bolt holes under the engine that are tapped, and they'll mount a complete footpeg / kickstand mount like this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/PIT-DIRT-BIK...item20cb056431 You can cut all of that low clearance junk off. You can replace that awful shifter with a spring-loaded piece like this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Motocross-Go...1082ab&vxp=mtr The bike won't run because of dirt in the jets. Remove the carb, remove the float bowl and unscrew the slow jet and main jet. Blast 'em clean with aerosol carb cleaner from Walmart. Have fun! Parts are cheap as chips, and these bikes really boogie once they're set up. __________________ Weldangrind "I figure I'm well-prepared for coping with a bike that comes from the factory with unresolved issues and that rewards the self-reliant owner." - Buccaneer
	0

10-20-2012, 12:48 PM	#4
katoranger Join Date: May 2007 Location: Altamont, Kansas Posts: 15,103	You will probably want to adjust the valves too. __________________ You meet the nicest people on a Honda Clone.
	0

10-20-2012, 01:53 PM	#5
Weldangrind Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Sardis, BC, Canada Posts: 25,977	That's exactly like the one we had. See how the exhaust pipe comes out of the head and then transitions into an expansion chamber? From there, it necks down to a small pipe and then feeds the muffler. That design is just like the Yamaha two-stroke. I agree with Kato; the valves will need some love. __________________ Weldangrind "I figure I'm well-prepared for coping with a bike that comes from the factory with unresolved issues and that rewards the self-reliant owner." - Buccaneer
	0

10-21-2012, 02:53 PM	#6
FastDoc Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Southeastern Washington desert Posts: 14,761	Start here: http://www.dansmc.com/troubleshooting2.htm Spark, mixture, compression. That's the next step. Remove the spark plug and put your finger over the hole. Push as hard as you can while kicking/cranking the motor. If it can't smartly blow your finger off the hole you have a compression problem. If that's the case it may be as simple as a tight valve so check those regardless. If that's not the case it may need cylinder/piston or valve work. IIRC new motors for these are like $200 so no way you can lose money on this deal. __________________ Happy to serve.
	0

10-20-2012, 02:34 AM	#3
Relic Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Penticton, BC Posts: 25	Awesome, thanks for all that! I'll see if I can get the thing running this weekend, and if it all works out, I'll see about breaking the bank on all those high dollar parts you pointed out hahaha. It could use the pegs and shifter anyways, as they're all mangled or missing right now. And as for the right side pic, here ya go!
	0

10-22-2012, 10:32 AM	#7
Relic Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Penticton, BC Posts: 25	Well, I dug into it a little bit yesterday. Gave the carb a good cleaning, though it was pretty spotless inside. I started into the valves, but my feeler gauges have gone missing, so I won't be able to properly check them until I grab a new set. Though there was no visible slop in them. The air filter/box was pretty caked with dirt, but still no fire without it on. Compression was the 3rd thing on my list to check as well. Though I didn't have the correct adapter for my tester to fit the tiny plug hole. I've been trying to track one down, but got put off for the weekend. I'll see if I can order one today. These things are definitely a fun way to learn how to work on small engines though! Basically the same as "brand name", but parts are pennies on the dollar :P Oh, a quick add on. The last rider (a 15 yr old), said it was blowing a lot of smoke before it died. His buddy was actually riding it at the time. Knowing him, I almost suspect that trying to kill it was a fun game, after he got his new bike. Hearing that, kinda leads me more towards piston/rings. But I'm having a bit of fun with this, and it'll be awhile before my son is big enough for it (he's 5), so I'll continue my education and troubleshoot until I find out exactly what's up! Thanks for all the help thus far!!
	0

10-22-2012, 10:38 AM	#8
Weldangrind Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Sardis, BC, Canada Posts: 25,977	My favourite aspect of these bikes is the ridiculously low parts prices. To expand your search criteria on eBay, you gotta think like a person who doesn't speak English well, and who might not understand bikes. Search for items like DIRT BIKE MUFFLER, for example. Sometimes I laugh out loud. I expect that your valves are too tight, and setting them will likely solve the problem. It'll be interesting to hear your observations about how it runs with the stock pipe and airbox, vs any mods that you make. Please let us know. __________________ Weldangrind "I figure I'm well-prepared for coping with a bike that comes from the factory with unresolved issues and that rewards the self-reliant owner." - Buccaneer
	0

10-22-2012, 11:42 AM	#10
FastDoc Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Southeastern Washington desert Posts: 14,761	Though there was no visible slop in them. Too tight. That may explain the non-running due to lack of compression. Not the smoke though. You may be looking at rings and a cylinder honing. Might be another $30! LOL! __________________ Happy to serve.
	0

10-22-2012, 01:17 PM	#11
Relic Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Penticton, BC Posts: 25	Hahaha, awesome! It's all good experience. As long as I get it running in the end, I'll be happy. 30 bucks.... hahahaha
	0

10-23-2012, 12:04 AM	#12
Weldangrind Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Sardis, BC, Canada Posts: 25,977	Here's a twist: if you need a cylinder and piston, you can buy a 110 bore. The 110 shares a crank with the 90. __________________ Weldangrind "I figure I'm well-prepared for coping with a bike that comes from the factory with unresolved issues and that rewards the self-reliant owner." - Buccaneer
	0

10-23-2012, 08:20 PM	#13
Relic Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Penticton, BC Posts: 25	Well, no luck with the valve adjustment. The intake was locked right down tight. The exhaust had some clearance, but very very little. I wasn't sure where to set them, so went with .003". I guess the last thing on the list is that compression check. Just waiting for a phone call from acklands grainger for when that 10mm/14mm adapter comes in
	0

10-23-2012, 11:22 PM	#14
FastDoc Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Southeastern Washington desert Posts: 14,761	That's a safe guess. To be maybe more percise I'd go by what Honda uses in their little 70 engines this one was cloned from. It does not appear that was the problem though. __________________ Happy to serve.
	0

10-24-2012, 02:00 AM	#15
Relic Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Penticton, BC Posts: 25	I tried to base my adjustment on the Honda, but found a lot of conflicting info online. Anywhere from .002 to .006. So I figured .003 would be on the tighter side of safe, just for troubleshooting. I'm hoping that adapter will be in tomorrow, so I can check compression with and without a squirt of oil to check the rings
	0