Hawk Talk - Page 72

Lit Hawk · 03-25-2019, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawk'em

Has anyone replaced the shift shaft seal on the hawk mine has 200 miles on it and has started leaking

Google is your friend

just type what your searching for and add chinariders after

http://www.chinariders.net/showthread.php?t=17769

Ariel Red Hunter · 03-27-2019, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pete

The CDI has the advance built into it.... it detects the time delay between the pulses from the motor and knows the revs the motor is doing then advances the spark to suit those revs...

Yes, that's true. BUT, at least on Chinese made CDI's, there is a very limited CDI advance range, which is why they start at 14 'o' advance in order to get to a ho-hum 34 'o' advance at speed. 'o' " = degrees here because I don't have the little degree symbol on my keyboard...ARH

Ariel Red Hunter · 04-22-2019, 05:11 AM

There are several different things that can cause this. But let's check the easiest one first. Ignition timing. All you need for this is a timing light. Hook the light to the spark plug wire, point the gun at the hole on the left side crankcase so it flashes on the flywheel/rotor. When it flashes, you should see the TDC line somewhere in the hole. If you don't, the magneto is not timed right from the factory, and it is a warranty problem. If you do the problem is on the other side (the timing side) of the engine, and we'll discuss that next time...ARH

for reading.

Azhule · 04-22-2019, 11:31 AM

ALT+167 (using the number pad) gives you the degree symbol º

Ariel Red Hunter · 04-23-2019, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azhule

ALT+167 (using the number pad) gives you the degree symbol º

Hey, thanks for that!...ARH ...Does this mean that ALT does not mean alternate universe?

Ariel Red Hunter · 04-23-2019, 08:53 PM

So now we go to the timing side of the engine. First, google up 'engine timing disc' and print it with your printer. Now glue it to a piece of card board, like from a cereal box. Attach it to the crankshaft tightly enough so it won't slip with the TDC mark on the flywheel/rotor line straight up, and zero on the disc pointed straight up. Now strip the insulation off of a piece of solid copper wire, and affix it somewhere on the motor cycle frame, and see that it doesn't move. Take out the spark plug to make this procedure go more easily. NOW we are going to degree in the valves. I don't know what the timing is on the little 229 cc engine, but I do know what it was on the Ariel Red Hunter engines including the 249 cc engine. And I know what the numbers are for the BSA Gold Star. What I want for you to do now is to take a clean piece of card board and draw four boxes on it. This is so you can compare the numbers with what you actually get off of your engine. Draw the boxes about 4 inches wide and 3 inches high. Separate the boxes by about 3 inches, so you don't confuse the numbers from one engine to another. If you've never done this before, it is quite confusing enough with out adding more things to scratch your head about. If you haven't done it already, remove the valve cover. It would be nice if you have two feeler guages. If you only have one, well, make do. Ariel wants you to check valve timing with the valves set at .0010 INCH. Why? The cam has quietening ramps, so called, that take up push rod and rocker slack before the valve actually begins to open, that's why. So, back to the boxes. Inside the boxes draw four equally vertical spaced lines. In the top left box write ARH and 229 under it, and below that write "normal". In the next box to the right, words one below another, "Inlet" then "opens" then "before" then "T.D.C." then "Degrees", then "14". Next column, Inlet, closes, after, B.D.C.,degrees, 62. Then in the next column, Exhaust, opens,before, B.D.C., Degrees, 62 and in the last column, Exhaust, closes, after, T.D.C., 17. Draw another horizontal line, then write in the left column Red Hunter, next column to the right "18", next right "68", next right, "63, and the last column, "23". Those are the Ariel valve timing MEASURED AT .0010 INCH CLEARENCE. Just like Ariel says to do it. Why should you care about this? Because I'm thinking that the `Hawk (and others) will have numbers close to the Red Hunter numbers. If any thing a little more cam than this, but not a lot. Now I'm getting a little tired, so I'll add some more tomorrow. Look at those boxes and wrap your mind around them, every word and number, top to bottom, so the next time someone says "Yeah, I've got 44-77-77-44 cams in my bike" you'll know exactly what he's/she's talking about....ARH

for your attention.

Megadan · 04-23-2019, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariel Red Hunter

There are several different things that can cause this. But let's check the easiest one first. Ignition timing. All you need for this is a timing light. Hook the light to the spark plug wire, point the gun at the hole on the left side crankcase so it flashes on the flywheel/rotor. When it flashes, you should see the TDC line somewhere in the hole. If you don't, the magneto is not timed right from the factory, and it is a warranty problem. If you do the problem is on the other side (the timing side) of the engine, and we'll discuss that next time...ARH

for reading.

With the timing light flashing you should actually see the F mark or pair of marks line up with the notch in the view window while it is running.

Ariel Red Hunter · 04-24-2019, 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Megadan

With the timing light flashing you should actually see the F mark or pair of marks line up with the notch in the view window while it is running.

I forgot about the "f" mark. Mea Culpa!...ARH

Ariel Red Hunter · 04-24-2019, 11:38 PM

Thinking about what I wrote yesterday, I realized that I never explained why it is nice to have two sets of feeler guages, but you can tough it out if you only have one. Instead of setting the valves at ten thousandths clearance, you set them at twelve thousanths and use the two thousandths guage to tell exacly when the valve starts to lift on opening. To put it another way, as you bring the engine around with that two thousandths guage between the rocker pad and the valve, the very instant you feel drag when pulling the guage, stop and see where the pointer is indicating on the Engine Timing Disc. Write the number of degrees shown on the degree wheel down on some scratch paper. It will read some number like 342. Of course everyone knows that there are 360 degrees in a circle, so you subtract 342 from 360. You end up with 18 degrees BEFORE T.D.C. Now back up the engine enough to get the two thousandths guage back between the rocker pad and the valve. Now rotate the engine in the direction it runs past BDC (180 on the timing disc). Now if the feeler guage is released enough to pull it when the pointer indicates 248 degrees, you subtract 180 from 248 because you are measuring from bottom dead center to where the intake valve closes, and you end up at 68 degrees. PAST B.D.C....ARH

Again!

Ariel Red Hunter · 04-26-2019, 08:53 AM

So, now that you have got your valve timings written down, perhaps the numbers don't correspond in any way, manner, shape, or form with the timing numbers that I gave you. Uh-oh, something is wrong. But what? The first thing I'd check would be if the pushrods are in the wrong holes. I don't know if this is even possible with this engine, but I'd check to see if it is possible, and I wouldn't take anybody's word that it is "impossible" until I checked it myself. What do I mean by the wrong hole? I mean if the intake valve pushrod got inadvertantly placed on the exhaust valve lifter, and the exhaust pushrod on the intake valve lifter. Can't happen? I've seen weirder things than this happen in assembly plants. One case that I remember happened at the Chrysler Windsor (Canada) plant. 318 engines suddenly were running rough. Excessive vibration. And unlike most vibration problems, it only got worse as the rpm went up. Gotta be a crankshaft problem, thinks genius#1. So they pull a bunch of vibro-massage engines out of the cars. Outside, after they come off of the assembly line. They lay the engines on their sides remove the vibration dampers and flywheels, and change crankshafts. No differance. Then they tear the heads off of one of the vibrators. Pistons are different from one side to the other. Yes, 7 to one on the left bank, 9.5 to one on the right bank. "Sabotage!" Of course it's sabotage, because that means we can place all of the blame on the employee, which is a lot cheaper than fixing the problem if it isn't the employees fault. and it wasn't. I turned out that the bins holding the pistons were miss-numbered from the engine plant. Great! We don't have to take the blame! Alright, you've checked, and the pushrods are where they are supposed to be. So what now? ARH

For reading the never ending story.

Ariel Red Hunter · 04-26-2019, 03:02 PM

Are you as tired of reading this as I am of writing it yet? Well, hopefully this should be it. You have either learned that the pushrods are in there incorrectly, and fixed it, or the pushrods are in the right place, so no joy. What's left? Well, the cam drive gear could be on the wrong tooth. Oh boy, somebodies thinking. It really isn't that big a deal to degree in a cam. first thing to do is see if there are timing dots or lines on the timing gear on the crank, and the half speed gear that the cam is mounted on. It is common to have one dot on the crank gear, and two dots on the timing gear. Who knows if it was assembled correctly. You will know very shortly if it was done right, because the dots line up or they don't. If the dots don't line up correctly it's because someone made a mistake. I know that you've never made a mistake but I have, so I've a twinge of sympathy for the poor guy who put it together wrong. So put it together with the two dots split in the middle by the one dot on the crank gear. Do I trust that everything is A-OK and put the engine back together and start it up, happily riding off in the sunset? Not a chance. Put the 2 thousandths feeler guage back in there. Back up the engine a little bit, pull gently on the guage, and check the degree wheel when it is tight. Check the degree wheel and write down the number. Remember to subtract that number from 360 to get the degrees before TDC. Most likely the number will be between 15 degrees before TDC to 30 degrees before TDC. Now roll the engine until the feeler gauge is just released. That is inlet valve closing. It might be somewhere between 60 to 70 degrees after BDC. Subtract 180 from the number you get. That tells you what the inlet closing degree is FROM BDC. Trusting soul that you are, you are sure that the exhaust numbers will be correct, because this engine has only one cam. I'm just not as trusting as you are, so I will check the exhaust valve timing as well. Doing the same routine on the exhaust side see if you come up with something around 62 open and 23 closing to maybe 65 opening to 30 closing, doing the same subtractions again. Remembering that the exhaust opens beforeBDC, and closes after TDC. Now that's enough to digest in one day....ARH

once again.

Ariel Red Hunter · 04-27-2019, 03:11 PM

Good thing that I don't write for a living, I think I've got a whole three readers in this little series. Why do I do it? I DON'T F+++++G KNOW!! But, onward and upward. Maybe. So What if the numbers are all wrong after you've done all of this? Yeah it could have been stamped wrong on the half-speed gear. There may still be a way out of the woods. Just re-time the engine. How? You already know how, you just haven't thought it through yet. Only this time I would go by the exhaust timing because there is less variation between the numbers for the mild valve openings and the lively valve openings, or between the mild cam and the more modern one. Aroud 63-65 degrees Before BDC, and 23-25 degrees AFTER TDC. Then check the intake opening and closing, write it down and see if the numbers make sense. In other words, you just keep moving the half speed gear until it's as right as you can get it, and I'm betting that you are home free..ARH

Megadan · 04-27-2019, 03:45 PM

Maybe 4 readers, but I am here for the entertainment and the free snacks.

Ariel Red Hunter · 04-29-2019, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Megadan

Maybe 4 readers, but I am here for the entertainment and the free snacks.

A response! And from one of the folks on here who knew all of this already. Entertainment and free snacks, for sure...ARH

Azhule · 04-29-2019, 11:53 AM

Allergy friendly snakes I hope

04-22-2019, 05:11 AM	#1068
Ariel Red Hunter Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: akwesasne, NY-13655 Posts: 2,220	Barking back through the carburetor. And it won't run There are several different things that can cause this. But let's check the easiest one first. Ignition timing. All you need for this is a timing light. Hook the light to the spark plug wire, point the gun at the hole on the left side crankcase so it flashes on the flywheel/rotor. When it flashes, you should see the TDC line somewhere in the hole. If you don't, the magneto is not timed right from the factory, and it is a warranty problem. If you do the problem is on the other side (the timing side) of the engine, and we'll discuss that next time...ARH for reading.
	0

04-22-2019, 11:31 AM	#1069
Azhule Join Date: Dec 2015 Location: CO Posts: 1,525	ALT+167 (using the number pad) gives you the degree symbol º __________________ "Think as you like... but this self proclaimed Professor is always right" - Buckshot "You never know what someone is hiding beneath their smile..." - NinjaTom - R.I.P.
	1

04-23-2019, 08:53 PM	#1071
Ariel Red Hunter Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: akwesasne, NY-13655 Posts: 2,220	Barking back through the carburetor. And it won't run So now we go to the timing side of the engine. First, google up 'engine timing disc' and print it with your printer. Now glue it to a piece of card board, like from a cereal box. Attach it to the crankshaft tightly enough so it won't slip with the TDC mark on the flywheel/rotor line straight up, and zero on the disc pointed straight up. Now strip the insulation off of a piece of solid copper wire, and affix it somewhere on the motor cycle frame, and see that it doesn't move. Take out the spark plug to make this procedure go more easily. NOW we are going to degree in the valves. I don't know what the timing is on the little 229 cc engine, but I do know what it was on the Ariel Red Hunter engines including the 249 cc engine. And I know what the numbers are for the BSA Gold Star. What I want for you to do now is to take a clean piece of card board and draw four boxes on it. This is so you can compare the numbers with what you actually get off of your engine. Draw the boxes about 4 inches wide and 3 inches high. Separate the boxes by about 3 inches, so you don't confuse the numbers from one engine to another. If you've never done this before, it is quite confusing enough with out adding more things to scratch your head about. If you haven't done it already, remove the valve cover. It would be nice if you have two feeler guages. If you only have one, well, make do. Ariel wants you to check valve timing with the valves set at .0010 INCH. Why? The cam has quietening ramps, so called, that take up push rod and rocker slack before the valve actually begins to open, that's why. So, back to the boxes. Inside the boxes draw four equally vertical spaced lines. In the top left box write ARH and 229 under it, and below that write "normal". In the next box to the right, words one below another, "Inlet" then "opens" then "before" then "T.D.C." then "Degrees", then "14". Next column, Inlet, closes, after, B.D.C.,degrees, 62. Then in the next column, Exhaust, opens,before, B.D.C., Degrees, 62 and in the last column, Exhaust, closes, after, T.D.C., 17. Draw another horizontal line, then write in the left column Red Hunter, next column to the right "18", next right "68", next right, "63, and the last column, "23". Those are the Ariel valve timing MEASURED AT .0010 INCH CLEARENCE. Just like Ariel says to do it. Why should you care about this? Because I'm thinking that the `Hawk (and others) will have numbers close to the Red Hunter numbers. If any thing a little more cam than this, but not a lot. Now I'm getting a little tired, so I'll add some more tomorrow. Look at those boxes and wrap your mind around them, every word and number, top to bottom, so the next time someone says "Yeah, I've got 44-77-77-44 cams in my bike" you'll know exactly what he's/she's talking about....ARH for your attention.
	0

04-24-2019, 11:38 PM	#1074
Ariel Red Hunter Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: akwesasne, NY-13655 Posts: 2,220	Barking carburetors. Thinking about what I wrote yesterday, I realized that I never explained why it is nice to have two sets of feeler guages, but you can tough it out if you only have one. Instead of setting the valves at ten thousandths clearance, you set them at twelve thousanths and use the two thousandths guage to tell exacly when the valve starts to lift on opening. To put it another way, as you bring the engine around with that two thousandths guage between the rocker pad and the valve, the very instant you feel drag when pulling the guage, stop and see where the pointer is indicating on the Engine Timing Disc. Write the number of degrees shown on the degree wheel down on some scratch paper. It will read some number like 342. Of course everyone knows that there are 360 degrees in a circle, so you subtract 342 from 360. You end up with 18 degrees BEFORE T.D.C. Now back up the engine enough to get the two thousandths guage back between the rocker pad and the valve. Now rotate the engine in the direction it runs past BDC (180 on the timing disc). Now if the feeler guage is released enough to pull it when the pointer indicates 248 degrees, you subtract 180 from 248 because you are measuring from bottom dead center to where the intake valve closes, and you end up at 68 degrees. PAST B.D.C....ARH Again!
	1

04-26-2019, 08:53 AM	#1075
Ariel Red Hunter Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: akwesasne, NY-13655 Posts: 2,220	The barking carb. So, now that you have got your valve timings written down, perhaps the numbers don't correspond in any way, manner, shape, or form with the timing numbers that I gave you. Uh-oh, something is wrong. But what? The first thing I'd check would be if the pushrods are in the wrong holes. I don't know if this is even possible with this engine, but I'd check to see if it is possible, and I wouldn't take anybody's word that it is "impossible" until I checked it myself. What do I mean by the wrong hole? I mean if the intake valve pushrod got inadvertantly placed on the exhaust valve lifter, and the exhaust pushrod on the intake valve lifter. Can't happen? I've seen weirder things than this happen in assembly plants. One case that I remember happened at the Chrysler Windsor (Canada) plant. 318 engines suddenly were running rough. Excessive vibration. And unlike most vibration problems, it only got worse as the rpm went up. Gotta be a crankshaft problem, thinks genius#1. So they pull a bunch of vibro-massage engines out of the cars. Outside, after they come off of the assembly line. They lay the engines on their sides remove the vibration dampers and flywheels, and change crankshafts. No differance. Then they tear the heads off of one of the vibrators. Pistons are different from one side to the other. Yes, 7 to one on the left bank, 9.5 to one on the right bank. "Sabotage!" Of course it's sabotage, because that means we can place all of the blame on the employee, which is a lot cheaper than fixing the problem if it isn't the employees fault. and it wasn't. I turned out that the bins holding the pistons were miss-numbered from the engine plant. Great! We don't have to take the blame! Alright, you've checked, and the pushrods are where they are supposed to be. So what now? ARH For reading the never ending story.
	1

04-26-2019, 03:02 PM	#1076
Ariel Red Hunter Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: akwesasne, NY-13655 Posts: 2,220	Barking, part whatever. Are you as tired of reading this as I am of writing it yet? Well, hopefully this should be it. You have either learned that the pushrods are in there incorrectly, and fixed it, or the pushrods are in the right place, so no joy. What's left? Well, the cam drive gear could be on the wrong tooth. Oh boy, somebodies thinking. It really isn't that big a deal to degree in a cam. first thing to do is see if there are timing dots or lines on the timing gear on the crank, and the half speed gear that the cam is mounted on. It is common to have one dot on the crank gear, and two dots on the timing gear. Who knows if it was assembled correctly. You will know very shortly if it was done right, because the dots line up or they don't. If the dots don't line up correctly it's because someone made a mistake. I know that you've never made a mistake but I have, so I've a twinge of sympathy for the poor guy who put it together wrong. So put it together with the two dots split in the middle by the one dot on the crank gear. Do I trust that everything is A-OK and put the engine back together and start it up, happily riding off in the sunset? Not a chance. Put the 2 thousandths feeler guage back in there. Back up the engine a little bit, pull gently on the guage, and check the degree wheel when it is tight. Check the degree wheel and write down the number. Remember to subtract that number from 360 to get the degrees before TDC. Most likely the number will be between 15 degrees before TDC to 30 degrees before TDC. Now roll the engine until the feeler gauge is just released. That is inlet valve closing. It might be somewhere between 60 to 70 degrees after BDC. Subtract 180 from the number you get. That tells you what the inlet closing degree is FROM BDC. Trusting soul that you are, you are sure that the exhaust numbers will be correct, because this engine has only one cam. I'm just not as trusting as you are, so I will check the exhaust valve timing as well. Doing the same routine on the exhaust side see if you come up with something around 62 open and 23 closing to maybe 65 opening to 30 closing, doing the same subtractions again. Remembering that the exhaust opens beforeBDC, and closes after TDC. Now that's enough to digest in one day....ARH once again.
	1

04-27-2019, 03:11 PM	#1077
Ariel Red Hunter Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: akwesasne, NY-13655 Posts: 2,220	The bark.....That bites! Good thing that I don't write for a living, I think I've got a whole three readers in this little series. Why do I do it? I DON'T F+++++G KNOW!! But, onward and upward. Maybe. So What if the numbers are all wrong after you've done all of this? Yeah it could have been stamped wrong on the half-speed gear. There may still be a way out of the woods. Just re-time the engine. How? You already know how, you just haven't thought it through yet. Only this time I would go by the exhaust timing because there is less variation between the numbers for the mild valve openings and the lively valve openings, or between the mild cam and the more modern one. Aroud 63-65 degrees Before BDC, and 23-25 degrees AFTER TDC. Then check the intake opening and closing, write it down and see if the numbers make sense. In other words, you just keep moving the half speed gear until it's as right as you can get it, and I'm betting that you are home free..ARH
	1

04-27-2019, 03:45 PM	#1078
Megadan Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Omaha, NE Posts: 7,913	Maybe 4 readers, but I am here for the entertainment and the free snacks. __________________ 2018 Hawk 250 - Full Mod list here. http://www.chinariders.net/showpost....62&postcount=1 Hawk Information and Resource guide: http://www.chinariders.net/showthread.php?t=20331 2010 VFR1200F - http://chinariders.net/showthread.php?t=20708
	2

04-29-2019, 11:53 AM	#1080
Azhule Join Date: Dec 2015 Location: CO Posts: 1,525	Allergy friendly snakes I hope __________________ "Think as you like... but this self proclaimed Professor is always right" - Buckshot "You never know what someone is hiding beneath their smile..." - NinjaTom - R.I.P.
	0