Moto Cult

[chiefmeat68]

So I found this site selling upgrade kits for many of the Chinese bikes. They claim to actually do dyno testing to show the improvement to expect. They also have good tutorial videos showing how to install.

I did a search and found no mention of them here on the forums. Does anybody have any experience with this company?

I have a Hawk 250 and am thinking about doing the basic kit... mostly for fun.

https://motocultparts.com/collection...s-ready?page=1

[Megadan]

They are legit. I have their big bore cylinder and head that I recently bought to replace my self ported head and standard bore cylinder. The cams they sell are the three WGK cam grinds sold out of Brazil, the 292 being the same cam I bought for my bike years ago.

The owner of MotoCult is actually a former engineer for Janus cycles, and he started by offering these parts for those bikes. it just so happens that they use the same old CG250 as many of these Chinese dual sports, so it works for our bikes too.

The dyno figures are legit as well. A fun side note about those dyno numbers too, they were recorded using a stock style PZ30 carb, not some big bore or smooth bore carb so many like to run.

[XLsior]

Nothing against the kit or the tinkering aspect as i've done my fair share of experiments.

But be aware a 172fmm-3 non balanced 5 speed and 172fmm-5 balanced 6 speed engines are about the same price as that kit at least for the USA domestic market.

[Zapkin]

Originally Posted by XLsior

Nothing against the kit or the tinkering aspect as i've done my fair share of experiments.

But be aware a 172fmm-3 non balanced 5 speed and 172fmm-5 balanced 6 speed engines are about the same price as that kit at least for the USA domestic market.

Are these direct bolt in compatible?

[chiefmeat68]

Originally Posted by XLsior

Nothing against the kit or the tinkering aspect as i've done my fair share of experiments.

But be aware a 172fmm-3 non balanced 5 speed and 172fmm-5 balanced 6 speed engines are about the same price as that kit at least for the USA domestic market.

Agreed... but I can't stop buying upgrades for the hawk... it's a problem.

Every time I go down the counterbalanced 6 speed rabbit hole I always come to the conclusion that I might as well just get a Templar X... but that would start the whole upgrade thing all over!

I'm thinking of just going for the "Stage 1 Performance Package." That would be 2hp for $100... which sounds reasonable for a 10%+ increase in power. And it would be a fun project.

[Megadan]

Originally Posted by XLsior

Nothing against the kit or the tinkering aspect as i've done my fair share of experiments.

But be aware a 172fmm-3 non balanced 5 speed and 172fmm-5 balanced 6 speed engines are about the same price as that kit at least for the USA domestic market.

I've seen this claim before, and no, sorry, it won't cost the same. It ends up being more expensive, for no gain in power over the CG. The balancer and the extra gear are nice to be sure, but it's not cheaper.

It definitely isn't easier either. A member of the Hawk page on facebook is doing said swap and discovered that, just like the RE250 engine, the front needs a little clearancing and the motor mounts aren't quite the same so some fab work is involved.

Then, there are all of the wiring changes that need done too.

None of this is hard if you know what you are doing, but most people aren't up for that kind of work.

I can quite literally install the advance key, cam, cylinder, followers, and ported head in a matter about 4 hours. 4 hours, several hp increase at the rear wheel, and a good bump in RPM and torque. Done.

Honestly, if you want a 172 powered bike, just get a 172 powered bike.

[Deckard_Cain]

When he first started up, I thought Devin's prices were too high... and his "slashed original prices" on the site still reflect that- but now, not so much. He's a good source for the parts ready to install.

As Dan said, dyno graphs are valid, and are lower than one could expect if you upgraded the carburetor and tuned it properly- although I don't know what style or size exhaust was ran on the test engine for those pulls. So there could be even more power to be had.

With the full kit and kaboodle, $500 is reasonable as heck. That ought to give you a roughly 22-23hp (flywheel) engine. A lot better than the stock levels for sure.

Depending on how the engine is tuned and set up from there with those parts, might be a bit more power in there somewhere too.

That's realistically about the best one can expect out of a CG250 without pushing the engine to or beyond limits that hold it in one piece. At least.. if you wanted to make it last more than just a few high speed runs anyways.

[Megadan]

Not to also mention he now offers ecu tunes for the DLX, from improved stock all the way up to his stage 3 kit. 125 dollars.

[Deckard_Cain]

Originally Posted by Megadan

Not to also mention he now offers ecu tunes for the DLX, from improved stock all the way up to his stage 3 kit. 125 dollars.

That's quite a good deal for those who don't want to buy/mess around with HUD Hacker... just send in the ECU, get it back and plug it in.

[bigdano711]

WHY did you have to post this????? Actually, I am loving the Hawk in it's stock form and don't think I will need the extra power. Maybe after I put 10K miles on it I'll be up for this. I do this type of stuff with RC trucks, so why not? Plus, I love learning new stuff and it's been too long since I've tried engines. This little sucker will be great to learn on.

[Megadan]

Originally Posted by bigdano711

WHY did you have to post this????? Actually, I am loving the Hawk in it's stock form and don't think I will need the extra power. Maybe after I put 10K miles on it I'll be up for this. I do this type of stuff with RC trucks, so why not? Plus, I love learning new stuff and it's been too long since I've tried engines. This little sucker will be great to learn on.

Honestly, it's more fun to do mods one at a time. You really get a feel for what each upgrade does and how the jetting needs change. In my time with the Hawk I ran it stock (with properly jetted carb) did the air box mod, noticed almost nothing. Did the exhaust next, great total increase in power, but really opens up the top rpm range the most. Next was my self ported head, and again, big increase in power across the board, and honestly if I were to build a bike for somebody, I would do those mods and one of the milder cam grinds and call it a day.

I did see a small gain in power with the big bore, again across most of the rpm range, but especially down low and in the middle. Up top, not so much. If their head is better than mine, it wasn't enough for me to notice a whole heck of a lot in terms of power, but there was a little more there, but that is down to small things like the valves being back cut. Idle and rideability are excellent, even with the 292 cam.

[Deckard_Cain]

Originally Posted by Megadan

Honestly, it's more fun to do mods one at a time. You really get a feel for what each upgrade does and how the jetting needs change. In my time with the Hawk I ran it stock (with properly jetted carb) did the air box mod, noticed almost nothing. Did the exhaust next, great total increase in power, but really opens up the top rpm range the most. Next was my self ported head, and again, big increase in power across the board, and honestly if I were to build a bike for somebody, I would do those mods and one of the milder cam grinds and call it a day.

I did see a small gain in power with the big bore, again across most of the rpm range, but especially down low and in the middle. Up top, not so much. If their head is better than mine, it wasn't enough for me to notice a whole heck of a lot in terms of power, but there was a little more there, but that is down to small things like the valves being back cut. Idle and rideability are excellent, even with the 292 cam.

I agree with all of that.

Only "mod/upgrade" where I wasn't sure if it did anything at all, was the 4 degree timing advance. I'm sure it contributed something somewhere somehow, but I didn't notice.

[XLsior]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/115527150035?

pretty close to the discount $499 for the moto cult kit wouldn't you say.

Tinkering is still tinkering...but for the money I think I'd go a whole new engine.

There is pretty good chance the wiring will be plug to plug, if not shouldn't be hard to snip and crimp a solution.

The 5 speed 172fmm-3 non balanced engine is a bit cheaper but should be a direct bolt in swap for all CG/CB frame types.

My XL185 frame took a cg250 and a cb250 no issue with lower mounts...

on paper a standard cg250 is 10kw/14nm. the 172fmm-5 claims 14kw/18nm. So I would say there is a difference in power and torque.

[Megadan]

Originally Posted by XLsior

https://www.ebay.com/itm/115527150035?

pretty close to the discount $499 for the moto cult kit wouldn't you say.

Tinkering is still tinkering...but for the money I think I'd go a whole new engine.

There is pretty good chance the wiring will be plug to plug, if not shouldn't be hard to snip and crimp a solution.

The 5 speed 172fmm-3 non balanced engine is a bit cheaper but should be a direct bolt in swap for all CG/CB frame types.

My XL185 frame took a cg250 and a cb250 no issue with lower mounts...

on paper a standard cg250 is 10kw/14nm. the 172fmm-5 claims 14kw/18nm. So I would say there is a difference in power and torque.

Yeah, so $550 (shipped) for a 5 speed OHC non-balanced engine with a 3 phase stator that requires a new reg/rec and a new CDI as well. Does not directly bolt up and requires some fab work. Rated 19hp at the crank. which would be about 17-ish hp at the rear wheel. Unknown additional costs for wiring changes, CDI, etc.

$500 for a Motocult kit for a CG250. Doesn't need any fab work. Doesn't need any wiring or parts changes of any kind. Engine is already bolted in. Takes just a few hours to install taking your time with a cold beer in your hand, makes a proven 20+hp at the rear wheel.

Plus, you are trying to say "on paper" the STOCK CG already on our bikes makes less power (11.5kw tyvm) than the stock 172 engine when this entire thread is about installing an upgrade on a CG engine vs. Swapping the 172 engine in... Entirely counter to this entire thread, which is about an upgrade to a CG engine and your proposal is to swap the engine instead of upgrading it. Making that entire argument moot.

It's not cheaper. Not the same. Not even comparable. The cheapest engine option literally gives you nothing over the CG. Unbalanced and a 5 speed. All you get is OHC - wooptie doo

If I were going to go through all the work to put a different engine in I would at least get the 6 speed, and that costs even more, still down on power over the cheaper upgrade to the CG, and still much much more work.

Thus, we come full circle to - if I were going to go for a ZS172 engine I would simply get a bike that already comes with it.

[XLsior]

tinkering is tinkering...

If I was going to buy a $499 moto cult kit for a cg250 base hawk...

I would have just bought a bike that already came with a 6 speed counterbalanced engine...

It's a matter of perspective and personal preference Dan.

I doesn't bother me what other people do with their money or time...

Ive thrown on open wallet at the cg250, My experiments didn't pay off but I did learn from my mistakes.