Moto Cult

[Thumper]

And the ZS172FMM engines are nice. It has the OHC head. I have the 5 speed, used to own the 6 speed (counterblanced). You can buy it with a complete motorcycle with adjustable suspension for under $2000 (Templar). I agree, just buy the bike. THEN tinker!

[Megadan]

Originally Posted by XLsior

tinkering is tinkering...

If I was going to buy a $499 moto cult kit for a cg250 base hawk...

I would have just bought a bike that already came with a 6 speed counterbalanced engine...

It's a matter of perspective and personal preference Dan.

I doesn't bother me what other people do with their money or time...

Ive thrown on open wallet at the cg250, My experiments didn't pay off but I did learn from my mistakes.

No, it's not a matter of personal preference in this case. This entire thread is about a person that already has a Hawk and now is considering bumping the performance of it. They already bought a bike.

This is about you moving the goal posts when an argument is defeated. Perspective and preference has nothing to do with my points being factual and completely valid.

This is a case of a $500 motocult kit is the cheapest way to get the power they are after.

It's cheaper than swapping the engine to something that gains them nothing more than an OHC engine with less power than the motocult kit would provide them on their CG engine.

Cheaper aside, it's also WAY less work to simply install the motocult package than it would be to swap the engine.

All the same arguments that I made previously, all of them still entirely relevant and true.

I don't know, maybe I missed where the OP asked about Swapping in an engine? Here is the first post for a refresher.

Originally Posted by chiefmeat68

So I found this site selling upgrade kits for many of the Chinese bikes. They claim to actually do dyno testing to show the improvement to expect. They also have good tutorial videos showing how to install.

I did a search and found no mention of them here on the forums. Does anybody have any experience with this company?

I have a Hawk 250 and am thinking about doing the basic kit... mostly for fun.

https://motocultparts.com/collection...s-ready?page=1

This thread had nothing to do with engine swaps. No matter how great the 172 engine is, it had to do with Motocult and if they were the real deal, which that question was answered.

Anyway, argue amongst yourselves at this point. I'm beyond this silliness.

[Deckard_Cain]

Originally Posted by XLsior

https://www.ebay.com/itm/115527150035?

pretty close to the discount $499 for the moto cult kit wouldn't you say.

Tinkering is still tinkering...but for the money I think I'd go a whole new engine.

There is pretty good chance the wiring will be plug to plug, if not shouldn't be hard to snip and crimp a solution.

The 5 speed 172fmm-3 non balanced engine is a bit cheaper but should be a direct bolt in swap for all CG/CB frame types.

My XL185 frame took a cg250 and a cb250 no issue with lower mounts...

on paper a standard cg250 is 10kw/14nm. the 172fmm-5 claims 14kw/18nm. So I would say there is a difference in power and torque.

Originally Posted by Megadan

Yeah, so $550 (shipped) for a 5 speed OHC non-balanced engine with a 3 phase stator that requires a new reg/rec and a new CDI as well. Does not directly bolt up and requires some fab work. Rated 19hp at the crank. which would be about 17-ish hp at the rear wheel. Unknown additional costs for wiring changes, CDI, etc.

$500 for a Motocult kit for a CG250. Doesn't need any fab work. Doesn't need any wiring or parts changes of any kind. Engine is already bolted in. Takes just a few hours to install taking your time with a cold beer in your hand, makes a proven 20+hp at the rear wheel.

Plus, you are trying to say "on paper" the STOCK CG already on our bikes makes less power (11.5kw tyvm) than the stock 172 engine when this entire thread is about installing an upgrade on a CG engine vs. Swapping the 172 engine in... Entirely counter to this entire thread, which is about an upgrade to a CG engine and your proposal is to swap the engine instead of upgrading it. Making that entire argument moot.

It's not cheaper. Not the same. Not even comparable. The cheapest engine option literally gives you nothing over the CG. Unbalanced and a 5 speed. All you get is OHC - wooptie doo

If I were going to go through all the work to put a different engine in I would at least get the 6 speed, and that costs even more, still down on power over the cheaper upgrade to the CG, and still much much more work.

Thus, we come full circle to - if I were going to go for a ZS172 engine I would simply get a bike that already comes with it.

Originally Posted by XLsior

tinkering is tinkering...

If I was going to buy a $499 moto cult kit for a cg250 base hawk...

I would have just bought a bike that already came with a 6 speed counterbalanced engine...

It's a matter of perspective and personal preference Dan.

I doesn't bother me what other people do with their money or time...

Ive thrown on open wallet at the cg250, My experiments didn't pay off but I did learn from my mistakes.

If I'm going to swap engines on a measly Hawk frame... I'm tossing in the engine from my pregen Ninja 250. It's been done before..

38 ish hp, parallel twin smoothness, 6 gears, 14,000rpm redline, Kawasaki reliability...

[bigdano711]

...and snap a frame weld...

[Deckard_Cain]

Originally Posted by bigdano711

...and snap a frame weld...

Then you repair and re-weld it.

Or... or... just hear me out here...

Since you'd have the entire thing basically stripped to a bare frame anyhow, how about going through each of the frame weld points and inspecting them, rewelding as needed, and adding bracing where identified weak points exist.

Just because you have 40hp in a bike frame doesn't mean all 40 horsies are being applied at any given time either.

Hell, even on a stock bike, unless you're going WOT up to 8000rpm on every ride, you're not even using all 15-16hp there either.

Anyone capable of stuffing an EX250f engine into a cheap XR clone frame is certainly capable of reinforcing and ensuring the frame is able to handle it.

[Megadan]

Originally Posted by bigdano711

...and snap a frame weld...

I honestly wouldn't worry about the frame.

The swing arm and it's mount point are, in my opinion, the weakest part of the Hawk.

[Bill Hilly]

The last 2 bikes, that I have bought have both been used, but each with almost no miles CG type Chinese Dual Sports, and I paid $1,900 total for both. $1,300 for a titled 2021, TBR7D ( was just a few months old at the time, showings 425 on the odometer,and had 42/17 sprockets, and rejetted carb), and $600 for a 2016 Hawk, that I bought last December, and it was showing around 100 on the odometer, if I remember right, it had sat in a storage container for years, and had only been used on the people's property, but it already had a VM26, and folding shifter on it. The front tire was pretty much flat, but it's not given me any trouble since I pumped it up. I put fresh gas in it, after getting home with it, and it wasn't too hard to kick start, but the clutch would not release. I got the clutch releasing within minutes by pulling the lever, with the bike in gear giving the bike hard sharp pushes forward, almost like rocking a car back, and forth to get it going in the snow. I have rode the bike enough to confidently say that my clutch is fine. That being said, I don't think I would buy another CG type new, because of some of the newer bikes having the 6 speed, OHC , BUT, I can honestly say that buying a used CG bike, and then going with the MotoCult total package, could make sense, especially, if you're content to stick with the CG bikes. I don't know if the Chinese OHC bikes are more dependable, and I honestly don't need a 6th gear in mine. I recently ported my head, and advanced ignition timing 4 degree, and instead a CSC head gasket on my TBR7, and picked up some more power, and that's probably about all the Nibbi PE28 can flow. I waited so long to do it, because I was already satisfied with the bike with just exhaust, and pod filter. I will probably port, and polish the Hawk head, and even though I only ordered 1 head gasket from CSC, I got 2, but I really enjoy my Hawk, now, with just cat , and baffle delete, and pod filter.

[Megadan]

I absolutely agree. If I were buying a bike today, I would get a Templar with the 6 speed trans or spend the extra for the.KPX 250. Hands down, not a single argument from me.

That said. A stage 3 motocult equipped CG250 makes more power to the rear tire than the 172 engine makes at the crank.

[Dusman]

Spot on Dan. I've watched with anticipation the Zongshen 172FMM 6 speed engine install on our Hawk250 Facebook page. Frankly, I'm not impressed. From what I've read, stock with the 172 is 19HP at the crank. With upgrades, as you've noted and has been proven by MotoCult, we can at least get our CG250s up to 20HP at the rear wheel. Thus, the conversion just isn't worth it to me...but that's me. I'd rather just buy a Templar X outright.

[Deckard_Cain]

Originally Posted by Dusman

Spot on Dan. I've watched with anticipation the Zongshen 172FMM 6 speed engine install on our Hawk250 Facebook page. Frankly, I'm not impressed. From what I've read, stock with the 172 is 19HP at the crank. With upgrades, as you've noted and has been proven by MotoCult, we can at least get our CG250s up to 20HP at the rear wheel. Thus, the conversion just isn't worth it to me...but that's me. I'd rather just buy a Templar X outright.

Same here... it's a fun project for the guy doing it, I'm sure.. but not what I'd do either. I don't think the effort will be worth the reward.

[Bill Hilly]

Is there any difference in the quality, or strength of the bottom end of the Chinese 229cc CG motors, and the OHC motors that a lot of the newer Chinese bikes are using?

[Megadan]

Originally Posted by Bill Hilly

Is there any difference in the quality, or strength of the bottom end of the Chinese 229cc CG motors, and the OHC motors that a lot of the newer Chinese bikes are using?

Being Chinese copy engines, probably about the same overall.

The main limiting factor for the cg goes back to it being a pushrod engine woth a single lobe cam. It will never rev as high as an OHC engine, but it makes up for it with better low rpm power.

[bigdano711]

I bought the MotCult head/base gasket set. I can not find any videos on these specific gaskets and whether or not you need to use the oil seal o-ring? I did find a video on the CSC head gasket for the TT250. He gives a shout out to MegaDan for the advice to not use the o-ring. Wondering if the same applies to the MotoCult gasket?

[superjocko]

Originally Posted by bigdano711

I bought the MotCult head/base gasket set. I can not find any videos on these specific gaskets and whether or not you need to use the oil seal o-ring? I did find a video on the CSC head gasket for the TT250. He gives a shout out to MegaDan for the advice to not use the o-ring. Wondering if the same applies to the MotoCult gasket?

For what it's worth, my 2024 CSC TT250 didn't have an o-ring, nor did one go in when I installed the Motocult stage 3 kit and gaskets. No leaks here and I'm a happy camper with the performance, particularly after enlarging the stock exhaust tailpipe and adding a Nibbi PE28FL.

[bigdano711]

How many miles since you did the stage 3? Can you hit 70 mph with ease, now? Also, very interested in that "custom-made cable controlled choke". How you do that?