The Purrfect Project (Hellcat)

[scoot newb]

A grom is 4k out the door new. a 190-ed clone is 1/2 that

[deadwood83]

I suck at taking photos. Once I start working I just get in the zone. Bike is plated, insured, etc.


THe Taotao swingarm SUCKS. THe adjusters are awful, and the whole thing springs outwards if the axle bolt isn't pinching it tight. Oh, and MotorKit appears to have discontinued shipping to the USA.


However, some creative searching on Ebay revealed a true gem.

I have never seen a swinger from a Grom so cheap! Says it includes the guts too. This will let me play with bushings and chain adjusters. Maybe even get around to a used Z125 shock. The rear damper is effective in absorbing bumps, but it is woefully under-damped.


New exhaust is in shipping from China. In the interim, I made the stock exhaust bolt up (though it has... two mount points). The 190 is a whooooole lot louder than the 125. Same exhaust system, and this thing's a bit of a racket. Holy smokes is it ever fun though. It just feels like it wants to wheelie when you take off in first. Not sure how to describe the feel of this bike with the 190. I would perhaps liken it to a squirrel on ritalin.


OK so everyone's fave question. With my fat butt on the bike, sitting fully upright, it tops out at ~67. Full tuck gets me about 71, I have no cell mount, so GPS measuring was done with a pace car, my buddy with his phone in a BMW 335. Right now it;s running the 122 main and I think it wants a 125. It's really really close though. 125 might be a bit too much. Throttle right now is pretty crisp and has no bog. The thing just wants to go. Thinking fatter main because if you roll off throttle really fast, there is the tiiiiiniest bit of rpm surge. I'll pop the 125 in tomorrow and test.


As far as startup, I think I have the sucker dialed pretty well in. It fires up like an EFI bike. Half a chug and it springs to life. Could lean it out just a hair, but only a blonde one. VIbration is different than the 125. The 190 has more of a buzz, the 125 was more of an intense feeling vibration than the 190 for sure. I like it a lot.

[RedCrowRides]

I'm slowly working towards the 190 swap , I've got everything pretty much how i want it but my new swingarm is still in transit from Thailand ,i am holding off on installing my new rear shock til swingarm gets here .
I have some other odds and ends i need to install ( front end preload adjusters and some Core braided steel brake lines front and rear ) and then I guess i am going to once again try to find a stunt hand brake kit ,it pains me they run around $400 - 450, I might wait on that and get the 190 first , i've come this far using just the rear brake foot control stunting and havent crashed " too much " lol.


I really, really want the 5 peed tranny in the 190 ,and of course the extra HP / Torque.

[deadwood83]

Scoot_newb! I found you in the fb page! Hahahaha it all makes sense now.

Anyway, I have been fighting with the stupid tachometer, and getting the choke lever feel where I want. The tach is one infuriating piece of factory equipment. I have tried different ground points, different coils, different CDIs, different stators. When the RPM goes over 4.5K, the tach goes backwards, and then fluctuates. This means that it is all but invisible while riding. I have ordered a new generic dash from Amazon and have set aside riding the bike (to not rack up miles). I plan to set up the new tach with the proper mileage by setting the wheel size in the tach to as large as it will go, then mounting it on my drill press to make odometers match.

I really hope the new one solves the issue. I have tried grounds at the following points to see if that's the issue:

• Ignition coil body/ground
• Ignition coil frame mount
• Engine case
• Engine sidecover
• Rear brake reservoir mount
• Separating harness ground from body ground
• Stacking harness ground and body ground

I have tried the following part swaps to see if that's the issue:

• Blue "racing" CDI with Hellcat stator and ZS190 coil
• Blue "racing" CDI with ZS190 stator and ZS190 coil
• Blue "racing CDI with Hellcat Stator and Hellcat Coil
• Blue "racing" CDI with ZS190 stator and Hellcat coil
• Hellcat CDI with Hellcat stator and ZS190 coil
• Hellcat CDI with ZS190 stator and ZS190 coil
• Hellcat CDI with Hellcat Stator and Hellcat Coil
• Hellcat CDI with ZS190 stator and Hellcat coil
• Tried swapping the yellow wires for the hell of it. Nope. It's just two AC waveforms, as expected.

It all behaves the same! Gah! Hopefully the new speedo has a proper tach reading. I have pored over the Icebear and SSR Razkull wiring diagrams. The hellcat appears to be a closer to the Fuerza. It uses the 5-pin CDI like the Fuerza, but has a diode off the ignition coil like the SSR. The diode is crimped into a two prong connector under the tank and wrapped in electrical tape. The tach signal is then measured off what looks like the difference in ground potential between battery ground and coil ground? That's what it looks like here:
http://www.ssrmotorsports.com/store/...%20Diagram.pdf
Though the icebear makes it look like the tach is measured off the high pulse ignition signal http://www.icebearatv.com/media/file/news3886Scan.pdf (page 31).


I am no elecchicken, but the tach seems to work at lower RPM and when the bike is not under load, making me believe the wiring is OK, and it's just a different configuration parameter in the dash? I wish they hadn't locked down the Hellcat dash firmware so much so I could play with the settings. It's going to be a pain to match the odometer. Any insight would be appreciated here.


My poor All Y'all carb is junk, but not for the reasons that others have found it to be junk. Most others in the swap page have found the lack of needle adjustment frustrating (and it is slightly, but I have M2.5 shims). The part that threw me was the choke bore! The choke is bored oversize so the plunger vibrates around inside and fuel creeps up the walls and finds its way into the head! But it's not a consistent stream of fuel which could be jetted for. SO I could roll the dice on another clone, and maybe another, or just bite the bullet and get the Nibbi. I got the Nibbi.




In other news, after riding my ZS-swapped Hellcat my younger brother suddenly needed a bike to play with. I reached out to Pete at Kronik but he said that per American Lifan, all KPM200s were sold out unless a dealer had one in their own warehouse. I have asked Don @ ShopAPMC for a refund on the KPM200 I ordered on April 10 and paid for on Apr 15.

We actually found a "used" KP Mini locally. It had a whole 88 miles on it. Red/black 2019 model (I do not like the 2020 color scheme). My bro does not have any riding gear nor a moto endorsement, so I rode it back to his place. Big mistake. The Lifan is nice. The seat is significantly more comfy, the rear suspension is in an entirely different league, the throttle tube is way less janky, and that counterbalance... Hoooo boy. At least I now have a seat to study for potential foam shaping on my DOOM kitten.

I do have two major issues with the Lifan though:

1. It has no shifter feel. I wear a size 13 shoe and the shifter is so light that if you bump it while moving your foot beneath, it will downshift. No tactility.
2. The clutch is so light that it is completely devoid of all feedback. I am shocked that it doesn't slip more.

[scoot newb]

The cluster can behave weird if there is a bad connection.

Even if the connection is good many in the groups have a problem with clusters going blank after a certain RPM stock. The first thing everyone usually does is replace it. I figured Tao would have corrected the problem by now. This has been going on since the 2017 models.

Hellcat CDI with ZS190 stator and ZS190 coil is the combo I use and the cluster even the stock one didn't have a problem. But I had one of the ones that was km/h only.

The clone PE's usually have 5 needle clip positions but I've never seen one like yours before.

[scoot newb]

Originally Posted by deadwood83

Scoot_newb! I found you in the fb page! Hahahaha it all makes sense now.

I am banned from all of the public ones except for The Clone Society.

Clone Army and ZS190 Swap Shop were okay.

Both of those groups were in denial about the shift star problem. The mods would tell others it was extremely rare. Other things too. As I went along doing my build I would find wow, well that information is wrong. The mods are also extremely biased.

I hate to say it but I've spent a lot of time looking around other groups... pitbike related. They do ZS 190 swaps too. These motors are prone to failure. The transmission is a mess and it is starting to come to light the real Daytona 190 5 speeds are too.

I have a 2nd new 190 that has never been run. In a new pit bike I got registered. Yes it has plates!

I'm hoping it is one of the better 190's or at least won't have transmission problems since the shift star keeper was applied as soon as I took it out of the box. I should have it done shortly

[deadwood83]

Nibbi is on. Bike idles A LOT smoother, Idle drop test shows it is at a happy AFR on the pilot. Amazing how much better the engine runs when you don;t have random amounts of fuel entering at random times through the enrichment port....

Also took delivery of my pressure rated hose so I can start to fab my custom oil cooling solution. I am a little tired of the gaping hole between the fairings.


Grom swingarm also arrived. Came with bushings and axle bolt. It is actually the proper size and not flared out at the back like the stock hellcat swinger. Ordered the YSS monoshock after riding the KP mini. The stability difference between the two bikes is absolutely mind-boggling. Some of that may have something to do with going 70 vs 40 though....

[scoot newb]

Originally Posted by deadwood83

Nibbi is on. Bike idles A LOT smoother, Idle drop test shows it is at a happy AFR on the pilot. Amazing how much better the engine runs when you don;t have random amounts of fuel entering at random times through the enrichment port....

Also took delivery of my pressure rated hose so I can start to fab my custom oil cooling solution. I am a little tired of the gaping hole between the fairings.


Grom swingarm also arrived. Came with bushings and axle bolt. It is actually the proper size and not flared out at the back like the stock hellcat swinger. Ordered the YSS monoshock after riding the KP mini. The stability difference between the two bikes is absolutely mind-boggling. Some of that may have something to do with going 70 vs 40 though....

Did you get the 28 or the 30 Nibbi? How did you jet and set the needle?

You should post some pictures of your bike. I have been posting some to encourage you.

[scoot newb]

Progress update?

[deadwood83]

New speedo came in. It is the style without CEL/Water temp gauge. Currently whirring away on the drill press to get the mileage proper.Only had 55.1 miles on the original odometer so that won't take long.


First impressions: VASTLY superior reaction speed to gear changes. No more waiting 1-2 seconds before the proper gear indicator / neutral light pops. YOu can see it briefly light N when going from 1 to 2.
I did have to swap 3rd and 4th wires. Fuel gauge took a while first start, but I think it was measuring the sender because the gauge slowly climbed to the proper level. Second turn of the key and it was instant.


I do need to rewire the speedo connection. Gauge has a female lead, bike has a female lead.


Steering on this thing feels a bit janky. Not sure if it's the soft front forks, the under-damped rear shock, a cheap, out-of shape swingarm, or a combination of all three. I am conquering them is order of ease. First will be completing the grom swingarm swap. I'll put in the Honda rubbers at the same time. Currently pending arrival of factory parts and the YSS preload adjustable rear shock. I believe I still have a bunch of bushings from my Progressive Suspension rears on the XJ, so those will be put to good use.


The steering stem was slightly over hand tight. Gave that a few love taps with a screwdriver and hammer with a touch of red loctite on the top set of threads.


I am going to at least re-oil the forks. I have 12 quarts of redline D4 ATF back when I owned a car with an auto trans. Works like a dream in my 84 XJ; can;t see a reason why it wouldn't be better than whatever swill is in these. You can hear it gushing about when the front is loaded.


I still need to lube the cables. I got it all set up with a slit in a finger of a rubber glove zip-tied around the entry, then found my can of cable lube was empty.


After work I hit up the local Autozone after placing an online order at 7AM. (12 hours later). Waited in line for 20 minutes, realized I was at the wrong location. Went to the proper location watched a friendly gentleman without a mask help several customers, accept payment, etc, all with the same, stained gloves. Had me sign the pad using their pen too. Everything from Autozone plopped down on the front seat, and I proceeded to wipe myself down with lysol wipes (and all the products, bag, and seat.)


By the time I got home, it was too dark to do anything. And hey! My drill press finished while I was in the process of typing this.



I need to wire that speedo properly now. My XJ aslso needs the mufflers re-packed. They are causing it to lean on midrange.



Why are the miles so low despite having an over-enthusiastic speedometer? Because the factory exhaust/muffler can melt a piston if left too long. My replacement is stuck in god-knows-where but supposedly in the US for 10 days now. No movement. Super frustrating.



Carb is a Nibbi PE28. My atmospheric density isn't high enough to take advantage of anything bigger on this engine, esp without a 4v head. The Nibbi has a 4.0 slide, and I can tell. The bike is weak and lumpy just off idle. Finding a 3.0 slide outside of paying $75 for it seems almost impossible. I might just move the clip down one notch, sigh, and live with it.


I've actually been doing a good chunk of sighing after riding my brother's KP Mini.That thing is so nice.we're putting a BBK 223cc kit in it soon. I have upgraded clutch plates and springs at the ready, as well as a gallon on GN4 10w-40.


I can't do too much riding without the freaking exhaust. Oh well. It feels slightly disappointing right now, but I am sure I'll fall in love with it again once it actually runs.

[scoot newb]

The KP Mini is cool. Not as cool looking but better quality and there is that BBK you mention.

I finally got around to adjusting that nut on the goose-neck too. I always hated it was a tad loose but didn't have a wrench that fit.

Please let me know how the suspension works out. I want to get a shock too and some forks. I have been packing it on since quarantine. I am surprised the bike even moves anymore.

[scoot newb]

What is this about the 4.0 slide on the nibbi? What does that mean?

[deadwood83]

Slide number affects fuel delivery in the range of ~1/16 throttle to ~3/16 throttle.
Keihin's jetting guide lists it as "Throttle Valve Cut away"
Higher numbers mean a leaner mix at that same throttle opening range while lower numbers indicate a richer mixture.


I thinkt he suggestion on the FB pages to use a 1/4 turn throttle may be influenced by this. The range where cutaway if effective is incredibly difficult to stay within on a throttle which has a smaller effective range.


I don't race or stunt, so I am more partial to winder range throttle tubes. I fond the stock hellcat tube to be a little touchy with the ZS190, especially when going over speed bumps. It also seems rather... light. I wonder of the PWK28 springs would fit. WHen you are used to pulling a throttle actuating four butterflies with two springs each...


Also, new tach works a treat. Still waiting on the exhaust. Old tach has a silk screened board revision of 2013. Primary IC on it looks to be a Holtek HT46R65 8-bit ADC. There is zero hope of updating the firmware because it's an OTP (One Time Programmable) device.

[deadwood83]

Yss shock is here! Looks like a quality unit. I have run my fingers over every edge, not a sharp part to be found. The machining is very nice.



Users on the grom forums were complaining about split center bushings. I think either YSS listened, or they bought fake reproductions. Note the solid bushings and part markings. This was not made on old tooling.



Another tell of a not-clone is printed spring rate and part number on the spring. The spring has one drip mark (you can tell it was dip-painted) then the lettering added later. Gas port is also clocked with a definite paint line marking position. No oil wiping on the piston rod. This is made to tighter tolerances than some Koni, Bosch, and Sachs suspension I have put on BMWs.



See those two reflections where the tool changed direction? This part was not polished/burnished in a separate process. That's straight from the machine. Body threads are not at all sharp. They are buttery smooth.

I am impressed. Locking screw for the preload adjustment also came with a fiber pad between it and the threads. No thread galling from the lock. So what's the first thing I did? Dropped that set screw straight into a trash bag filled with kitchen waste.


I'm just going to buy a $0.30 nylon-tipped set screw.

[scoot newb]

That shock looks nice!