Oil

[Lee R]

That article was quite informative. I suspected as much from the diesel oils as I've been using the T6 Rotella with good results for a few years.

It also highlights why it's important to change the oil more frequently with a wet clutch bike.

I do leave oil in my Moto Guzzi for the recommended 6000 mile intervals but that bike is set up like a car with a separate gear box that uses different oil. The MG also costs 75 dollars per oil change.

Detours I'm not sure what was going on with your Vstrom as the Rotella is JASO MA rated as well as all the other diesel ratings.

My Tiger 1050 liked it unless you left it in the bike for too long. As the article indicates you really don't want to follow the manufacturers intervals of 5-7500 miles on modern bikes unless your using one of the top grade synthetics as the oil breaks down fast with a wet clutch.

[detours]

Thank you spudrider, for the additional information. I saw the author's 10W-40 recommendations, but that only made his 10W-40 warning more confusing. On a second read, he probably is warning against non-synthetic 10W-40 oils.

I'm a believer in synthetic oil, though some may see it as a waste of money. The low pour point makes cold morning starts easier and the high temperature protection is good for severe service and idling in summer traffic. I notice less heat from the engine and smoother shifting, which makes riding more enjoyable.

But not all synthetic are the same. My wife, who is not very mechanical, even noticed the sticky shifting in her TU when I changed from conventional to synthetic Rotella T6 oil. She noticed immediate improvement when I switched her to Mobil1 and then to amsoil. These were fairly short intervals (1000-2000 miles) so dirty oil was not much of a factor. And she really loves that she went from 75 mpg on conventional and T6 to 90 mpg on Mobil1 and 100+ mpg on amsoil.

[SpudRider]

Originally Posted by detours

Thank you spudrider, for the additional information. I saw the author's 10W-40 recommendations, but that only made his 10W-40 warning more confusing. On a second read, he probably is warning against non-synthetic 10W-40 oils.

I'm a believer in synthetic oil, though some may see it as a waste of money. The low pour point makes cold morning starts easier and the high temperature protection is good for severe service and idling in summer traffic. I notice less heat from the engine and smoother shifting, which makes riding more enjoyable.

But not all synthetic are the same. My wife, who is not very mechanical, even noticed the sticky shifting in her TU when I changed from conventional to synthetic Rotella T6 oil. She noticed immediate improvement when I switched her to Mobil1 and then to amsoil. These were fairly short intervals (1000-2000 miles) so dirty oil was not much of a factor. And she really loves that she went from 75 mpg on conventional and T6 to 90 mpg on Mobil1 and 100+ mpg on amsoil.

I think you make an excellent point. One should experiment with different motor oils, and choose the motor oil which works best with his particular motorcycle.

On most forums every oil thread turns into a cyber war. Some people can't tolerate the idea that someone even disagrees with them, let alone is arguing with them. Our policy here is different. We want to share knowledge, help each other, and grow.

My philosophy about motor oil is simple. Choose a quality motor oil of the appropriate weight which doesn't have friction inhibitors which will make a wet clutch slip. Then change that motor oil frequently. Everyone has a right to choose the motor oil which works well for his particular bike, and it is nobody else's business to tell him he is wrong.



Regarding clutch slippage, I think the executive summary of the second article offers some excellent, general advice.

Avoid oils that say "energy conserving" in the bottom half of the donut. These oils contain friction modifier additives that could cause clutch slipping over time. All XXw-20 and XXw-30 oils are energy conserving, and should not be used in your motorcycle.

[dave92029]

I have read, the articles referred by Spud, and the author certainly appears very knowledgeable about oils, BUT...

To better explain my concern about RPM's -The term "motorcycle" covers a lot of ground:

To the best of my recollection the Harleys that I owned operated at diesel like RPM's.
Most of my BMW's were happiest between 4,000- 5000 rpm.
My KLR and and Vstrom were also best below 5500rpm.

Therefore I would say that most of my motorcycles operated best around 4,000 rpm.

I therefore would PRESUME that the Oil Guru would be using the term "Motorcycle" to describe engines that operated around 4,000 rpm.

I also presume that the Japanese motorcycle manufacturers created the JASO Oil certification because they were producing engines that produced peak power above 10,000 rpm.

These very high RPM's required engines to be produced to very exacting tolerances and also required different lubrication than engines running at 40% of these rpm's.

I do not have the specific knowledge to discuss which oil is most appropriate, but my common sense tells me that if an engine operates at high RPM's it has different requirements than an engine operating at less than half the rpm's.

Therefore, I agree in general with Spud's authors evaluation on engine oils, but question if his definition of "Motorcycle" represents high rpm engines as well as the more typical 4000 rpm variety?

The RX3 is not a race engine, but it does operate best above 6,500 rpm, so I defer to the Japanese motorcycle manufacturers and Zongshen which suggest that JASO certified oils are best in their engines. I just can't explain Why.

[SpudRider]

You have asked excellent questions, and pondering questions is how everyone learns.

I think the earlier Shello Rotella didn't meet JASO-MA standards because it was slightly high in phosphorus. Both Rotella T and Rotella T6 meet the JASO-MA standards.

I think if a motorcycle meets the SM and SJ standards, as does Mobil Delvac 1300, it should be good for high rpms.

Other than heat, why would higher rpms be harder on a motor oil? I don't know if motor oils are rated for engine rpms. Nevertheless, there is no doubt that motorcycles are harder on motor oil than automobiles.

Most cars also operate at lower rpms than motorcycles. Yet the following article from Motorcycle Consumer News concludes, based upon the results from a scientific study, that motorcycle specific oils don't perform better than automotive oils.

http://www.ducatimeccanica.com/oil.html

[SpudRider]

The first CalSci article refers to the JASO-MA standard. Here are some quotes.

http://www.calsci.com/motorcycleinfo/Oils1.html

Another institute that certifies oils is called the Japanese Automotive Standards Organization, JASO...

Interestingly, although Honda recommends a JASO-MA oil, Honda oil is not JASO-MA certified. Mostly JASO-MA is pretty much equivalent to SH. In fact, the JASO spec is mostly a reaction to the decrease in zinc-phosphates in SJ and SL oils, and the added molybdenum disulfide in energy conserving oils...

[Weldangrind]

Originally Posted by detours

I'm a believer in synthetic oil, though some may see it as a waste of money.

I'm also a believer in synthetics, but only where synthetics are necessary or of actual benefit. I've switched to synthetics in small horizontal engines, where finding neutral was a bear. In my CG engines, conventional Rotella does a great job, so I've found no reason to switch.

When I used synthetic oil in my old (and worn out) XR250R, it killed mosquitoes for miles. When I used conventional Rotella in it, the engine burned oil at a much slower rate. Not sure why that would be.

Your wife's bike is quite healthy, and as such you're seeing different results even among synthetics. The fact that her mileage has increased and shifting has improved by switching from Rotella T6 to Mobil 1 is excellent testimony. Those results may or may not transfer to another bike.

This is a fascinating thread.

[SpudRider]

Originally Posted by Weldangrind

I'm also a believer in synthetics, but only where synthetics are necessary or of actual benefit. I've switched to synthetics in small horizontal engines, where finding neutral was a bear. In my CG engines, conventional Rotella does a great job, so I've found no reason to switch.

When I used synthetic oil in my old (and worn out) XR250R, it killed mosquitoes for miles. When I used conventional Rotella in it, the engine burned oil at a much slower rate. Not sure why that would be.

Your wife's bike is quite healthy, and as such you're seeing different results even among synthetics. The fact that her mileage has increased and shifting has improved by switching from Rotella T6 to Mobil 1 is excellent testimony. Those results may or may not transfer to another bike...

Well said, good friend.

Originally Posted by Weldangrind

...This is a fascinating thread.

I agree. We have a lot of friendly, knowledgeable people on these forums. I am learning a lot as others reply, and I continue to research this topic. This might be the only amicable oil thread on the internet.

[Weldangrind]

Originally Posted by SpudRider

This might be the only amicable oil thread on the internet.

I've been here for quite a while, and I still learn something on this forum every day. For me, it is a genuine pleasure to be a member here.

[SpudRider]

Indeed, that is why these forums are my favorite 'shop.'

People here can express different opinions, and no one takes it as an insult. We can't learn anything if we are never exposed to new ideas, or aren't willing to entertain them. We won't hear any new ideas if we are so dogmatic that no one can disagree with us. Nobody knows everything.

[detours]

Originally Posted by Weldangrind

Your wife's bike is quite healthy, and as such you're seeing different results even among synthetics. The fact that her mileage has increased and shifting has improved by switching from Rotella T6 to Mobil 1 is excellent testimony. Those results may or may not transfer to another bike.

This is a fascinating thread.

Agreed, any of our results may not transfer to another bike (or even the same bike under different riding conditions), but they may serve as a starting point for others to try and see what works for them.

I'm happy to compare notes, learn what I don't know and rethink what I think I know.

[rjmorel]

So here's a question for you guys.
Can you guys find neutral easily?
My RX3 is a bear to get into neutral at stop lights . I can get it into first or second but neutral I really have to work at and then the light usually changes so off I go. I'm running Valvoline 4 stroke mc atv 15/40 jaso-ma2 oil and have the cable adjusted properly I think . Little bit of play ,no sign of clutch slippage. My NC700x is pure buttery smooth to find neutral. It's magical.
I know I can just leave it in gear at stop lights, but I'm anal about it and even kick my car into neutral at stop lights and it's a automatic . It's my thing OK.
Is this an oil issue?
dirty oil issue? change oil every 3000 miles
cable adjusting issue?
or design issue?
Have around 6200 miles on Don Quixote (for those of you who read Joes great book.) thanks, rj

[SpudRider]

Originally Posted by rjmorel

So here's a question for you guys.
Can you guys find neutral easily?
My RX3 is a bear to get into neutral at stop lights . I can get it into first or second but neutral I really have to work at and then the light usually changes so off I go. I'm running Valvoline 4 stroke mc atv 15/40 jaso-ma2 oil and have the cable adjusted properly I think . Little bit of play ,no sign of clutch slippage. My NC700x is pure buttery smooth to find neutral. It's magical.
I know I can just leave it in gear at stop lights, but I'm anal about it and even kick my car into neutral at stop lights and it's a automatic . It's my thing OK.
Is this an oil issue?
dirty oil issue? change oil every 3000 miles
cable adjusting issue?
or design issue?
Have around 6200 miles on Don Quixote (for those of you who read Joes great book.) thanks, rj

It's possible a different engine oil might help. I think the difficulty in finding neutral is probably a design issue. If I turn off the engine, I can shift into neutral easily. However, if the engine is running, finding neutral becomes more difficult. My Honda CRF250X exhibits the same behavior.

[detours]

I can't easily find neutral on mine, with the engine on or off. I'm using the maxima oil from CSC. I'm curious if that will improve when I switch to synthetic.

[SpudRider]

Originally Posted by detours

I can't easily find neutral on mine, with the engine on or off. I'm using the maxima oil from CSC. I'm curious if that will improve when I switch to synthetic.

I'm surprised to hear that. My RX3 slips easily into neutral when the engine is off.