Templar X AZ mountains jetting help

GigaXi · 01-10-2024, 09:57 AM

Hello! I've had my Templar for a few months and I've been riding it, but I got it used at around 1300 elevation, and I brought it to where I live, which is 5000 elevation. I've been trying to research carb jetting on my own but it seems to rely on so many factors, and I couldn't find any Templar specific jetting guides... I don't have the manual either, so I'm not sure if that would have helped. The bike runs fine-ish; Bogs out sometimes when I give it more throttle than usual, even though it feels warmed up. It's very easy to stall, but I'm not sure if that's just me still learning the clutch. It's also fairly hard to start. Takes full choke and a few seconds of holding the start button.

I ordered a set of jets, and they just came in. Everything is stock. What jets is everyone running at around 5k elevation? I live in AZ but in the mountains, so it gets pretty cold. It's like 30f right now. Thanks so much!

XLsior · 01-10-2024, 04:48 PM

you'll likely need smaller jetting compared to 'stock' jetting at 1000ft or less...

Higher elevation results in lower air density=less oxygen.

So most of your doughy performance observations suggest a richer mix condition.

Thumper · 01-10-2024, 05:15 PM

Pull the plug, read it.

I wouldn't jump to conclusions or change a thing until you look at that plug.

If there is any soot, it's rich. How about backfiring when you let OFF the throttle? That would indicate lean.

After you read the plug and think about these things, pull the carb. Has it been opened? There are three screws with break-off screws (no slot to remove). Have they been removed/replaced?

Is this a YouAll (original carb). If it is, it came with 120 main, 40 pilot jets. I installed 125 main, 42 pilot. I also shimmed the needle ~1mm. This works at 800 feet.

It might be a little too rich for 4000feet. Original jetting might do fine at that altitude.

The last thing is to drill out the airmix screw. ~1.5 turns out or up to 2 turns might work.

If PO changed the carb, you are starting over. What model, what jets?

Check out
https://www.chinariders.net/showpost...59&postcount=4

My guess is SHIM the needle, maybe a mm. That might fix it, period.

XLsior · 01-10-2024, 06:26 PM

A plug read is a definite good start..
Shimming the needle with make it richer which will likely perform worse...

I would start by smaller incremental pilot jetting...

Thumper · 01-10-2024, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XLsior

A plug read is a definite good start..
Shimming the needle with make it richer which will likely perform worse...

I would start by smaller incremental pilot jetting...

Lean running midrange could easily cause bog due to insufficient fuel, needle not lifting to let enough fuel in. A plug read will help. If it isn't sooty, LIFT the needle.

Startling point is whether the carb and jetting is OEM. And are you getting lots of popping/backfiring on deceleration - this means lean, not rich.

Is this the original carb???

XLsior · 01-10-2024, 09:10 PM

if the OP is 1000-5000ft stock jetting which is typically a 38p 120m on a pz 30 clone might be too rich...

OP never mentioned decel popping...

Bigdano711 is at high elevation so I would ask him what his current jetting is to get a ball park. though he's tuning on a CG250...

GigaXi · 01-10-2024, 09:17 PM

It does pop on decel! But the carb is stock, untouched, never been opened. Great idea to mess with the air screw, I'll give that a shot. I'll pull the plug too, thanks! I was just hoping I could copy someone else's carb setup that's in a similar elevation. Thank you both for the input.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thumper

Disagree. Lean running midrange could easily cause bog due to insufficient fuel, needle not lifting to let enough fuel in. A plug read will help. If it isn't sooty, LIFT the needle.

Startling point is whether the carb and jetting is OEM. And are you getting lots of popping/backfiring on deceleration - this means lean, not rich.

Is this the original carb???

Quote:

Originally Posted by XLsior

if the OP is 1000-5000ft stock jetting which is typically a 38p 120m on a pz 30 clone might be too rich...

OP never mentioned decel popping...

Bigdano711 is at high elevation so I would ask him what his current jetting is to get a ball park. though he's tuning on a CG250...

bigdano711 · 01-10-2024, 11:51 PM

I was running the stock PZ30 as it came and it did pretty good. The settings on that carb are: main 105, pilot 40 and the needle is non-adjustable, but set right in the middle when compared to a needle set that I bought.

I am currently running the Nibbi PE28FL and my settings on that are main 105 (I think), pilot 40 and needle in the middle. I have a rich bog if I snap the throttle past 1/4 and it will actually die if I hold it. I believe it's rich because I adjusted the needle to rich and it got worse. I will begin leaning the needle one notch at a time in an attempt to correct that bog and report my results.

Right now she fires up fine in freezing temps with choke and warms up pretty quick. I will have to give a little throttle to keep it running, I try to keep it around 2000 rpm. I do that for about 30 seconds, then kill the choke and let off the throttle and she idles until warm.

Thumper · 01-11-2024, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GigaXi

It does pop on decel! But the carb is stock, untouched, never been opened. Great idea to mess with the air screw, I'll give that a shot. I'll pull the plug too, thanks! I was just hoping I could copy someone else's carb setup that's in a similar elevation. Thank you both for the input.

Oh ! Untouched OEM carb. That might be pretty close for 4000 feet. It will probably be slightly lean as stock for sea level. I'd shim the needle about 1 mm and open up the airscrew a half turn (on this carb, opening adds a little more fuel). That might do it.

120 main and 40 pilot are stock jet sizes. But since you have some elevation, you might not need to change them.

Needle shim instructions are in post #5 in the Templar resource guide but they assume that you've already removed the break-off screws holding the bowl on and replaced them with allen bolt (see post #4 for a link to that).

bigdano711 · 01-11-2024, 03:05 PM

What carb does the Templar X use? Are you able to access the airscrew without taking the carb off? This and the needle shimming nonsense (you can only adjust the needle in one direction) had me deleting the PZ30 and going with the Nibbi.

GigaXi · 01-11-2024, 04:07 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Templar uses a PZ30

. Although I can access the fuel mixture screw without taking it off! You couldn't? What nibbi did you get? I have a keihin PE laying around, but honestly the PZ30 and the keihin look pretty much exactly the same. I'll probably replace the stock carb once it gets a little bit warmer, but for now I'll mess with the air mixture screw.

EDIT: Scratch that! That wasn't the air screw, that was the "DRAIN YOUR GAS OUT OF THE CARB" screw! Won't be making that mistake again. I guess I can't access mine easily either. Bummer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigdano711

What carb does the Templar X use? Are you able to access the airscrew without taking the carb off? This and the needle shimming nonsense (you can only adjust the needle in one direction) had me deleting the PZ30 and going with the Nibbi.

Thumper · 01-11-2024, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigdano711

What carb does the Templar X use? Are you able to access the airscrew without taking the carb off? This and the needle shimming nonsense (you can only adjust the needle in one direction) had me deleting the PZ30 and going with the Nibbi.

YouAll smoothbore carb comes with the Templar X. It is a good fit for the engine, and no aftermarket carb will make any difference in horse power, and it can be tuned just like any carb.

The "nonsense" of shimming is a standard method used for decades on old style slide carbs and CV carbs. And yes, it is only for enriching midrange which is usually exactly what these bikes need. Simple fix.

Buy a new carb and start all over if you want. You can do that too.

GypsyR · 01-12-2024, 10:28 AM

Out of my rather large collection of screwdrivers, there's only one long, lean, whippy, and slightly bent one that I can easily use to adjust my idle mixture. I make SURE I know where it is now because to start with I was struggling to use an extra stubby screwdriver which was annoying.

I shimmed my needle like everyone said being not far above sea level but ended up putting it back stock due to misfire at cruise. Right at the speed I ride to work at. Without the shim and bumping the low speed jet one more size richer to compensate I think has mine dialed in about as good as it gets. Not all these bikes are quite the same apparently, you do have to tune for yours and where you are.

Thumper · 01-12-2024, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GypsyR

Out of my rather large collection of screwdrivers, there's only one long, lean, whippy, and slightly bent one that I can easily use to adjust my idle mixture. I make SURE I know where it is now because to start with I was struggling to use an extra stubby screwdriver which was annoying.
...

I ended up using a flathead screwdriver bit. I could turn it by hand, but it is tricky keeping track of turns. I marked one of the faces of the hex end, and the ambiguity vanished!

Click image for larger version

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GypsyR · 01-12-2024, 01:47 PM

Eeesh. I tried using a bit too but the screw is just hard enough to turn to make that finger tip torture. Plus I don't have smallish hands/fingers which doesn't help.

It occurred to me it's kind of funny that these bikes evidently have "personalities". Kind of in the way many older bikes do. Like how no two old Triumphs or BSA's were ever tuned exactly alike. Or just because you knew how to kick start YOUR old Harley didn't mean you did your buddy's.

Kind of like a bike with personality, not gonna lie.

01-10-2024, 09:57 AM	#1
GigaXi Join Date: Oct 2023 Location: Northern Arizona Posts: 41	Templar X AZ mountains jetting help Hello! I've had my Templar for a few months and I've been riding it, but I got it used at around 1300 elevation, and I brought it to where I live, which is 5000 elevation. I've been trying to research carb jetting on my own but it seems to rely on so many factors, and I couldn't find any Templar specific jetting guides... I don't have the manual either, so I'm not sure if that would have helped. The bike runs fine-ish; Bogs out sometimes when I give it more throttle than usual, even though it feels warmed up. It's very easy to stall, but I'm not sure if that's just me still learning the clutch. It's also fairly hard to start. Takes full choke and a few seconds of holding the start button. I ordered a set of jets, and they just came in. Everything is stock. What jets is everyone running at around 5k elevation? I live in AZ but in the mountains, so it gets pretty cold. It's like 30f right now. Thanks so much!
	0

01-10-2024, 05:15 PM	#3
Thumper Join Date: Feb 2021 Location: Kansas City Posts: 2,241	Pull the plug, read it. I wouldn't jump to conclusions or change a thing until you look at that plug. If there is any soot, it's rich. How about backfiring when you let OFF the throttle? That would indicate lean. After you read the plug and think about these things, pull the carb. Has it been opened? There are three screws with break-off screws (no slot to remove). Have they been removed/replaced? Is this a YouAll (original carb). If it is, it came with 120 main, 40 pilot jets. I installed 125 main, 42 pilot. I also shimmed the needle ~1mm. This works at 800 feet. It might be a little too rich for 4000feet. Original jetting might do fine at that altitude. The last thing is to drill out the airmix screw. ~1.5 turns out or up to 2 turns might work. If PO changed the carb, you are starting over. What model, what jets? Check out https://www.chinariders.net/showpost...59&postcount=4 My guess is SHIM the needle, maybe a mm. That might fix it, period. __________________ -2022 5 speed Templar X Orange, OEM 51T rear sprocket, 14T front sprocket -NOS 2020 KTM 250SX (2-stroke motocross), less than 10 hours on it
	0

01-10-2024, 11:51 PM	#8
bigdano711 Join Date: Jun 2023 Location: Big Piney, WY Posts: 418	I was running the stock PZ30 as it came and it did pretty good. The settings on that carb are: main 105, pilot 40 and the needle is non-adjustable, but set right in the middle when compared to a needle set that I bought. I am currently running the Nibbi PE28FL and my settings on that are main 105 (I think), pilot 40 and needle in the middle. I have a rich bog if I snap the throttle past 1/4 and it will actually die if I hold it. I believe it's rich because I adjusted the needle to rich and it got worse. I will begin leaning the needle one notch at a time in an attempt to correct that bog and report my results. Right now she fires up fine in freezing temps with choke and warms up pretty quick. I will have to give a little throttle to keep it running, I try to keep it around 2000 rpm. I do that for about 30 seconds, then kill the choke and let off the throttle and she idles until warm. __________________ 2023 Hawk 250 from XPRO off of Amazon MOUNTAIN MAN RC + MOTO on YouTube "If there were more bloody noses, there would be less wars." - Hagbard Celine "Someday, after mastering the waves, the winds, the tides and gravity, we shall harness for God the energies of love and then, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire." - Pierre Teilhard de Chardin
	1

01-11-2024, 03:05 PM	#10
bigdano711 Join Date: Jun 2023 Location: Big Piney, WY Posts: 418	What carb does the Templar X use? Are you able to access the airscrew without taking the carb off? This and the needle shimming nonsense (you can only adjust the needle in one direction) had me deleting the PZ30 and going with the Nibbi. __________________ 2023 Hawk 250 from XPRO off of Amazon MOUNTAIN MAN RC + MOTO on YouTube "If there were more bloody noses, there would be less wars." - Hagbard Celine "Someday, after mastering the waves, the winds, the tides and gravity, we shall harness for God the energies of love and then, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire." - Pierre Teilhard de Chardin
	0

01-10-2024, 04:48 PM	#2
XLsior Join Date: Aug 2020 Location: Australia Posts: 1,279	you'll likely need smaller jetting compared to 'stock' jetting at 1000ft or less... Higher elevation results in lower air density=less oxygen. So most of your doughy performance observations suggest a richer mix condition.
	0

01-10-2024, 06:26 PM	#4
XLsior Join Date: Aug 2020 Location: Australia Posts: 1,279	A plug read is a definite good start.. Shimming the needle with make it richer which will likely perform worse... I would start by smaller incremental pilot jetting...
	0

01-10-2024, 09:10 PM	#6
XLsior Join Date: Aug 2020 Location: Australia Posts: 1,279	if the OP is 1000-5000ft stock jetting which is typically a 38p 120m on a pz 30 clone might be too rich... OP never mentioned decel popping... Bigdano711 is at high elevation so I would ask him what his current jetting is to get a ball park. though he's tuning on a CG250...
	2

01-12-2024, 10:28 AM	#13
GypsyR Join Date: Feb 2023 Location: Upstate SC Posts: 271	Out of my rather large collection of screwdrivers, there's only one long, lean, whippy, and slightly bent one that I can easily use to adjust my idle mixture. I make SURE I know where it is now because to start with I was struggling to use an extra stubby screwdriver which was annoying. I shimmed my needle like everyone said being not far above sea level but ended up putting it back stock due to misfire at cruise. Right at the speed I ride to work at. Without the shim and bumping the low speed jet one more size richer to compensate I think has mine dialed in about as good as it gets. Not all these bikes are quite the same apparently, you do have to tune for yours and where you are.
	1

01-12-2024, 01:47 PM	#15
GypsyR Join Date: Feb 2023 Location: Upstate SC Posts: 271	Eeesh. I tried using a bit too but the screw is just hard enough to turn to make that finger tip torture. Plus I don't have smallish hands/fingers which doesn't help. It occurred to me it's kind of funny that these bikes evidently have "personalities". Kind of in the way many older bikes do. Like how no two old Triumphs or BSA's were ever tuned exactly alike. Or just because you knew how to kick start YOUR old Harley didn't mean you did your buddy's. Kind of like a bike with personality, not gonna lie.
	1