What would you buy, ride & keep?

[culcune]

Originally Posted by PowerSlidz

Thanks for all of the thoughtful replies all - gave me a lot to think about!

Yea - 70MPH on a <300lb bike is not much fun on so many levels. Nice to be able to do 70MPH though.

re: OT - so what I gather so far is there isn't anything between the <2K air-cooled 'Hawks' and those >$4K w/NC250 based-engines?

It's amazing to see what you can get (EFI?) for $2K - however but the frame / swingarms / suspension don't seem to be built for hard riding. The engine looks kind of anemic / old school as well. Are these 4-valve, counter-balanced? Someone said these are Suzuki motors?

Does any know what the NC250 is based off of. It seems most all CCP engines are copies of something...

If you look into the Pitster Pro site, they have three versions of the XTR 250--one has 21/18 wheels, another has 19/16 wheels, and a third has 17/17 wheels. All have full street lighting and all are in the high-$2k to low $3k range. Worth a look. Another bike is from a high-quality company called Kayo (Kayo might be the OEM for Pitster Pro or at least some of their bikes). I cannot link to Pitster's site because it doesn't get through my work's firewall, but Kayo's site does come through. I do feel they are pushing the MSRP price on this bike at $3500, but it is a high-quality machine. One feature not found on other bikes is a 6-speed transmission. https://www.ridekayo.com/t4-250

As far as a $2k machine, check out the Orion RXB 250L. Probably the best value and even uses an actual 249cc engine (vs. the Pitster and Kayo 230cc engines). Personally, this is the bike I would get out of the higher-end ones you mentioned in your first post above, and others mentioned. https://www.orionpowersports.com/ori...embled-tested/

The NC250 is Honda-ish based. Most every engine is a Honda-ish or cloned engine. There happens to be one Suzuki-clone, the SSR XF250 dual-sport, which uses a clone of the Suzuki TU250 engine but except has a carb vs. the TU's fuel-injection. Member dh owns one and is our resident expert on the beast. He commutes on his a few times a week from the so-called 'inland empire' outside Los Angeles to downtown Los Angeles (one of two Chinese dual-sports CARB certified for California) a distance of 70 or so miles each way. Their MSRP is around $3200, and might be worth look as well.

[Megadan]

Yeah, there are a couple of bikes that sit between the Hawks and GPX in terms of price, but they also kind of only fit into one real category. They are "Dual Sports" of the more heavily offroad variety, and thus not very comfortable, or very large in fuel tank capacity. The latter might not be a big deal to some, but I personally get annoyed having to fill up a bike every 80-100 miles.

Honestly, the XF250 is likely the only bike in that price range that does fit into the more road worthy of the dual sports. It's still an air cooled 250, but it has more pep in its step than the CG based motors in the Hawks.

[Wild Dog]

Originally Posted by PowerSlidz

It's amazing to see what you can get (EFI?) for $2K - however but the frame / swingarms / suspension don't seem to be built for hard riding.

It's quite the quite the opposite. They are made to be abused and neglected.

You may say, but the rear suspension lack linkage, it is inferior and the front is thin. Indeed they are inferior in that regard and you won't be jumping with them, but they will last for a long time.

These motorcycle were not designed nor intended to be ride on the weeked with a nice leather outfit. They were made to be a cheap daily means of transportation.
I sold my Enduro CG around march 2020 to a Nurse that was in need of a cheap motorcycle. He lives near my flat, the other day i saw him and the CG.
In less than year he put on the clock around 13000 miles, the engine still runs fine and the frame still holding some rust spot here and there (i'm the one to blame).

[GronkFries]

Interesting read. I think it would be impossible to find a perfect "all purpose" motorcycle, and anyone serious about riding would have more than one bike depending on the use (I just chuckled at myself but it's kind of true lol).

My "favor" for off road/rural riding is a light 250 class because I'm fat and 50. A younger kid would much more prefer a heavier 300+cc bike with an acrobatic suspension (And could handle the highway much better as well). I find the 250 easier and more fun to maneuver. Long ride pavement it's liter bike hands down, cruiser or sport for me.

[jthewood]

Originally Posted by Megadan

I do agree that at least a 350-400+cc bike would be the better option, but show me a truly good dual sport bike in that displacement other than the CRF450L.

In the U.S., there really isn't much to choose from. The ADV Bikes in that size class are just road bikes with a lift kit, and usually a lot heavier.

Not sure I agree, there are several options above 250cc, but below 500cc.
Husky Fe350s (pricy, unmatched performance)
KTM 350EXCF (pricy, unmatched performance)
Kawi KLX300 (modern EFI dual sport, super heavy)
GPX FSE300 (EFI, 6spd, upscale suspension, good price for value)
GPX FSE450 (EFI, 6spd, upscale suspension, good price for value)

Or, go the mod route and upgrade a 250:
KLX250 to KLX351 big bore
WR250 to WR300 big bore
Even the Chinese LC250s have a 283 big bore kit

Just examples of lightweight, sub 500cc dual sports (using that term loosely) that can do highway miles but also perform off road.
J

[Megadan]

Originally Posted by jthewood

Not sure I agree, there are several options above 250cc, but below 500cc.
Husky Fe350s (pricy, unmatched performance)
KTM 350EXCF (pricy, unmatched performance)
Kawi KLX300 (modern EFI dual sport, super heavy)
GPX FSE300 (EFI, 6spd, upscale suspension, good price for value)
GPX FSE450 (EFI, 6spd, upscale suspension, good price for value)

Or, go the mod route and upgrade a 250:
KLX250 to KLX351 big bore
WR250 to WR300 big bore
Even the Chinese LC250s have a 283 big bore kit

Just examples of lightweight, sub 500cc dual sports (using that term loosely) that can do highway miles but also perform off road.
J

I said GOOD dual sports. Aka, not using it loosely. The GPX bikes are good off road bikes, but not very good on road. The GPX300 and KLX300 are also not in the right displacement range. Most 300's are barely better than 250's in terms of power delivery. That said, I would grant the KLX a pass at least in terms of its proper dual sport capability.

The Husqs and KTMs. I am not even going to comment lol. Pricey is the least of their issues. And much like the GPX bikes they "inspired" they are more dirt bike and lack proper street bike capability. Just because a bike can be used on road, doesn't make it a street bike.

So, out of all your examples, the KLX is the only exception to the rule in my eyes.

Proper fuel tank size for better range, as well as rider comfort is often where many "dual sports" tend to lose points. in my eyes.

Not saying you are necessarily wrong either. All of those bikes could be used as a road bike for sure. I think the KLR650 is probably one of the best analogs for a proper "Dual Sport" as I define it in my mind, just for an example.

[franque]

Originally Posted by culcune

The NC250 is Honda-ish based.

Hey, just to clarify, that's completely incorrect. It's closer to the KTM RFS engine design, but it was actually a clean sheet design that Zongshen and Piaggio collaborated on for production purposes, but was designed by Kiska design, a company that does a lot of engineering for KTM, hence the similarities.

I'll have to dig up the source for the aforementioned statement, but Honda has only made three liquid cooled 250s that I'm aware of, the NX250 (definitely a different engine, not really a success for Honda), the XR250 Toronado, which is a South/Central American market motor, and the 2018+ CRF250R (which would obviously not be possible for Zongshen to have copied). If you google the images for any of those motors, it is clear that they are not a basis for the NC250.

That being said, Zongshen has adapted the head to a CB-based bottom end, as evinced by the Lifan swap project seen here.

[PowerSlidz]

Originally Posted by Wild Dog

It's quite the quite the opposite. They are made to be abused and neglected.

You may say, but the rear suspension lack linkage, it is inferior and the front is thin. Indeed they are inferior in that regard and you won't be jumping with them, but they will last for a long time.

Yes, I AM talking about thrashing off road. I am assuming I can still roost and want something that will.

The power on these Air Cooled 250 (18HP) and weight (250lb) just doesn't inspire me.

I guess I'm asking too much for too little..

[Wild Dog]

Originally Posted by franque

I'll have to dig up the source for the aforementioned statement, but Honda has only made three liquid cooled 250s that I'm aware of, the NX250 (definitely a different engine, not really a success for Honda), the XR250 Toronado, which is a South/Central American market motor, and the 2018+ CRF250R (which would obviously not be possible for Zongshen to have copied). If you google the images for any of those motors, it is clear that they are not a basis for the NC250.

The XR 250 Tornado is air cooled with an Oil radiator. Honda even sells it as Air cooled.

Originally Posted by PowerSlidz

Yes, I AM talking about thrashing off road. I am assuming I can still roost and want something that will.

The power on these Air Cooled 250 (18HP) and weight (250lb) just doesn't inspire me.

I guess I'm asking too much for too little..

That's because they are not 250cc, they are 230cc. If you want something that's truly off road, then you are barking at wrong tree and i'm not talking about these motorcycle being chinese but the whole 4 Stroke
For having fun off roading, nothing beats a 2 Stroke. Call it YZ, KX, RR, SX.
But a much higher price tag, the cheaper being th Beta RR 300 40 hp 229 pounds. But even these 2 stroke will need a good amount of maintenance.
I have a friends who only do off road and track, only 2T. After 40 hours they are always getting a new top end.

[PowerSlidz]

Originally Posted by Wild Dog

The XR 250 Tornado is air cooled with an Oil radiator. Honda even sells it as Air cooled.

That's because they are not 250cc, they are 230cc. ... ... After 40 hours they are always getting a new top end.

I agree - I LOVE 2-strokes

Yea, I guess I want too much! Want to be able to do 65-70 w/o loosing feeling in my body but roost off road.

What I read the GPX TSE250 (counter-balanced 230cc 2-stroke) are know to go >200 hrs w/o needing a top end? IDK if that's true but I enjoy wrenching anyway so I see this as a plus. But we're at 5K and the FSE300 w/injection - not so much fun but more power ?

If $$$ were no object I'd be all over the KTM...

[Megadan]

Originally Posted by Wild Dog

That's because they are not 250cc, they are 230cc. If you want something that's truly off road, then you are barking at wrong tree and i'm not talking about these motorcycle being chinese but the whole 4 Stroke
For having fun off roading, nothing beats a 2 Stroke. Call it YZ, KX, RR, SX.
But a much higher price tag, the cheaper being th Beta RR 300 40 hp 229 pounds. But even these 2 stroke will need a good amount of maintenance.
I have a friends who only do off road and track, only 2T. After 40 hours they are always getting a new top end.

Sadly, comparing 2 and 4 strokes often means you can't compare displacement directly. For obvious reasons, the performance of a 4 stroke to match a 2 stroke, generally needs about double the displacement. Even that isn't a good analog, but generally true.

The "Power for having fun" in the 4 stroke world is a 450cc bike, hands down. This gets you the similar power figures to a 250 2 stroke.

That still doesn't alter how the power is delivered, which will always be different.

Where 4 strokes tend to shine, especially in the last 10-15 years, is longevity/maintenance intervals. That and when comparing carbureted versions, being a lot less sensitive to jetting and climate changes.

[Wild Dog]

Originally Posted by Megadan

Sadly, comparing 2 and 4 strokes often means you can't compare displacement directly. For obvious reasons, the performance of a 4 stroke to match a 2 stroke, generally needs about double the displacement. Even that isn't a good analog, but generally true.

The "Power for having fun" in the 4 stroke world is a 450cc bike, hands down. This gets you the similar power figures to a 250 4 stroke.

That still doesn't alter how the power is delivered, which will always be different.

Where 4 strokes tend to shine, especially in the last 10-15 years, is longevity/maintenance intervals. That and when comparing carbureted versions, being a lot less sensitive to jetting and climate changes.

Indeed we can't compare displacement directly, but if i have to choose between a YZ250 or a CRF450R, i'm going for the YZ250.
For pure off road, it's hard to beat a 2 Stroke when it comes to fun factor.
I just love too much that feeling when you give throttle to a 2T. That push is just great.
Honda should stop with the tantrum and bring back the CR, they tried to beat the 2T with a 4T they lost... Just make a lot of people happy and bring back the CR series.

About the longevity/maintenance intervals. Yes the 4 Stroke wins 99% of the time...
With the 2 Stroke there is always something to fix. Most of my friends can't get more than 80 hours from ANY brand and they don't ride that hard.
In fact my 2 Stroke is gathering dust because i got a bit tired of fixing something or rebuilding the top end.

[PowerSlidz]

Originally Posted by Megadan

Sadly, comparing 2 and 4 strokes often means you can't compare displacement directly. For obvious reasons, the performance of a 4 stroke to match a 2 stroke, generally needs about double the displacement. Even that isn't a good analog, but generally true.

The "Power for having fun" in the 4 stroke world is a 450cc bike, hands down. This gets you the similar power figures to a 250 4 stroke.

That still doesn't alter how the power is delivered, which will always be different.

Where 4 strokes tend to shine, especially in the last 10-15 years, is longevity/maintenance intervals. That and when comparing carbureted versions, being a lot less sensitive to jetting and climate changes.

I get it - 4-strokes are also great tractability. The thing I wonder is yea, 2-strokes require more work - but i wonder if it's more to do w/vibrations and revving.

4T (why the T in 2T 4T?) mostly aren't revvers and 2T known for vibrations. The GPX TE250 is low-mid range & counter balanced. Changing rings every season sounds more like labor of love and let's face it - every bike ridden hard needs a yearly good once-over ..

[Wild Dog]

Originally Posted by PowerSlidz

4T (why the T in 2T 4T?) mostly aren't revvers and 2T known for vibrations. The GPX TE250 is low-mid range & counter balanced. Changing rings every season sounds more like labor of love and let's face it - every bike ridden hard needs a yearly good once-over ..

It's for Takt

Takt ---> Takt Time ---> Cycle/Period

So a 4T it's a 4 "Cycle/Period" and a 2T is a 2 "Cycle/Period".

If you speak French(temps), Spanish(Tiempos), Portugues(Tempo) or Italian(Tempo) that T fits

About maintenance, 2 Stroke are more needy. Even friends with KTM can do at best 60/80. The worst offenders about 30 hours but in this case we can blame the rider. I know a few that do pure off road with R machines and they can get above 100 hours.
L and F Hondas are pretty much "street" machines and you can expect them to last like any other street motorcycle.

[Megadan]

Originally Posted by PowerSlidz

I get it - 4-strokes are also great tractability. The thing I wonder is yea, 2-strokes require more work - but i wonder if it's more to do w/vibrations and revving.

4T (why the T in 2T 4T?) mostly aren't revvers and 2T known for vibrations. The GPX TE250 is low-mid range & counter balanced. Changing rings every season sounds more like labor of love and let's face it - every bike ridden hard needs a yearly good once-over ..

It's down to how 2 strokes operate that makes them the way they are. As Wild Dog said, cycle time is a big part of it. You have twice as many explosions in the same amount of time in a 2 stroke. That is part of the reason it tends to take about double the size to get the same power . Half as many explosions that are twice as big.

Without going into long winded explanations, the same things that make a 2 stroke good (lack of valves, high power density) are also the cause of their limitations - fueling sensitivity, heat issues, etc.

The biggest argument many 2 stroke enthusiasts tend to make against a 4 stroke is the valve maintenance, but that argument always used to make me laugh. A valve check vs. rebuilding a top end is like comparing taking a laxative to a colonoscopy.