Big Brother

Jim · 01-20-2010, 09:40 PM

We've had a lot of good discussions in here lately, why not keep the ball rolling.

I just started reading about these airport full body scanners. They seem like a pretty big invasion of privacy, and I've read about health concerns too. Nothing is going to happen though, the government will continue to make things like travelling by air stricter and stricter.

It seems like people need to say enough is enough, but what to do? My first thought is boycott air travel. My second thought is, if that happens and they get into financial trouble, the government will bail them out with your money.

Watching a fox news clip on youtube one of the guests commented that the terrorists want to use the plane as the weapon. Well the government wants to use fear as a weapon. They can use it to take away freedoms, and what do "the people" do about it?

Anyways this isn't really a well put together post, just putting it out there though.

FastDoc · 01-20-2010, 09:48 PM

Benjamin Franklin said, and I paraphrase, "Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither."

That's where I'm at. Want to be safe? Hide under your bed. Anything else has risk.

The airport experience is irritating enough as it is. Try taking your shoes off and on with broken fingers and a ruptured disk. That's where I was at last month when I had to fly commercial to Kalifornia.

I say profile the heck out of people. Works for El Al, the highest terrorist target in the world with a PERFECT safety record.

FastDoc · 01-20-2010, 09:50 PM

BTW, FWIW, I was tremendously impressed with the quality political discussions we've had here. Perfect gentlemen, and very intellegent and thoughtful.

I'm a moderator at a firearm/world history forum that is of very high quality. We are not allowed to discuss politics there. Everyone here conducted themselves excellently.

TeamCheap · 01-21-2010, 12:00 AM

I've boycotted the airlines long ago.

After watching how they'd rather spend 10 mil on death settlements from airplane accidents a year as oppossed to paying 100 mil to make them safe I decided they can go to hell.
That was just for general plane safety back 15-20 years ago or more, I havnt flown since I was a kid and highly doubt I'll ever fly again.

Those full body scanners are very invasive in my opinion and basically strip you down without you having to take your clothes off.

Wasnt it the movie "total recall" that had a wall that the people walked behind that was a full body scanner and here it is now for real.

Maybe they'll do away with the body scanners after they get everyone set up with an implanted I.D. chip.
Soon everyone on the planet will be required to have their chip implanted so they'll know where everyone is and the ones without it will be detained.

The enhanced drivers license has the RFID chip in it for quicker border crossing but not for use on planes yet.A guy at work just got his yesterday so he can go over to canada and party without the hassles at the border or atleast less hassles.

Jim · 01-21-2010, 12:07 AM

They have started marketing those enhanced drivers licenses here too. They are using border crossing as a selling point. I don't think I need one. I don't know if they have it or not, but there was talk here about fingerprints being required for drivers licenses some time in the future.

TurboT · 01-21-2010, 02:46 AM

Wasn't it great when we could just hit the border and say,"Hi, I'm from Canada and I'm going down to the ball game.. " or, "I live in Surrey and I'm heading for gas, smokes and some other shopping..." We'd smile and wave at each other and be on our merry way. Amazing how we managed to do this without weed going one way, coke going the other, guns coming up, terrorists going down.. I really wonder how much of the unsavory's we really stopped then, or are stopping now. The criminal will always adapt, and the 'normal' people will always be inconvenienced by the few.

The terrorists seem to be winning. They are striking fear into us, and turning us into a police state society. It's very sad.

Jim · 01-21-2010, 04:28 AM

I've actually had similar experiences as the easy version you stated, from the Canadian side anyways. Some times they are pickier, but usually the trouble comes from the USA side... Often on the way back they don't even look at ID, how are you, where do you live, have a nice day.

Reveeen · 01-21-2010, 05:18 AM

I'm just wondering how "we" got this thing turned around so that it is "our" problem? Why is the government even involved in this?

Lets stop and look how others in the transportation industry deal with this.

Lets look at the lowly cab owner/operator.

In big cities a cab driver KNOWS there are places he will not go at night, either pick-up, or deliver. There are addresses he is not interested in picking up fares from. He inspects his passengers before letting them in his cab and estimates his chances of a profitable outcome.

This lowly cab driver has what? Maybe $10,000 invested in his cab, and of course, his life.

An airline company has what? Maybe 6.5 million invested in a plane, skilled staff to protect, and the lives of their passengers. Yet they accept no responsibility for their actions? In fact they take no responsibility for their actions and have somehow managed to off-load 100% of that responsibility.

Something here is not making sense to me.

Lets *think* about this. Maybe if those airplanes did not fly some places, if before you even bought a ticket you had to "qualify", if there was someone who simply talked to a person getting on a plane, maybe, just maybe, there wouldn't be a "problem"? (I'm *thinking* people that have a "life" would not be too thrilled about ending it?)

profile the heck out of people

I'm just wondering how/when air travel became a "right"? Car rental agencies put more effort in "checking you out" than airlines.

Of course this means that those plane tickets will increase in price. But shouldn't using a service be "user pay" anyway?

Clearly I am not interested in owning 1/1000000 of a percent of a full body scanner.

Weldangrind · 01-21-2010, 11:04 AM

I'm crafting a tin foil hat as we speak. 8O

Reveeen · 01-21-2010, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weldangrind

I'm crafting a tin foil hat as we speak. 8O

Are you telling me that if you owned a vehicle worth 6.5 million you would not be in the least bit "picky" who was riding around in/on it?

It is me that needs the "tin-foil hat", as I have to submit to searches of my belongings, remove my boots for inspection, and turn out my pockets, for folks not even born in this part of the world (and statistically more likely to be terrorists than a WASP).

Weldangrind · 01-21-2010, 11:50 AM

Not saying that at all. I'm simply troubled by all of this. Like you, I've suffered the indignities of air travel.

Like TurboT, I appreciated the days when we could cross the border without any hassles. 9/11 changed all that...

FastDoc · 01-21-2010, 12:23 PM

Maybe they'll do away with the body scanners after they get everyone set up with an implanted I.D. chip.
Soon everyone on the planet will be required to have their chip implanted so they'll know where everyone is and the ones without it will be detained.

You bet. At the risk of seeming over the top, bear in mind I am a Christian here...

This is a good scenario for The Mark Of The Beast. 666. It will be required for all commerce sometime in man's future. Glad to say I will not be here for that.

In the meantime, as my business and pleasure requires it, I will contine to fly commercial, although I will be irritated while doing so. Whenever practical though, I fly my own plane. With my own sidearm.

katoranger · 01-21-2010, 01:16 PM

I try to avoid flying (I don't like the trapped feeling). I would much rather drive someplace. Of course driving is not always practical.

Since I really don't have anything to hide I don't mind the security precautions. I am all for profiling though. Except they may use that against white rednecks.

FastDoc · 01-21-2010, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katoranger

I try to avoid flying (I don't like the trapped feeling). I would much rather drive someplace. Of course driving is not always practical.

Since I really don't have anything to hide I don't mind the security precautions. I am all for profiling though. Except they may use that against white rednecks.

Welcome to one of the last groups that it is 'OK' to be predjusticed against. White men, obese, smokers, and a few other subsets.

katoranger · 01-21-2010, 01:23 PM

Can I claim to be in a minority then?

01-20-2010, 09:40 PM	#1
Jim Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Abbotsford, BC, Canada Posts: 4,880	Big Brother We've had a lot of good discussions in here lately, why not keep the ball rolling. I just started reading about these airport full body scanners. They seem like a pretty big invasion of privacy, and I've read about health concerns too. Nothing is going to happen though, the government will continue to make things like travelling by air stricter and stricter. It seems like people need to say enough is enough, but what to do? My first thought is boycott air travel. My second thought is, if that happens and they get into financial trouble, the government will bail them out with your money. Watching a fox news clip on youtube one of the guests commented that the terrorists want to use the plane as the weapon. Well the government wants to use fear as a weapon. They can use it to take away freedoms, and what do "the people" do about it? Anyways this isn't really a well put together post, just putting it out there though. __________________ "Be excellent to each other" "We are all human. Let's start to prove it!"
	0

01-20-2010, 09:48 PM	#2
FastDoc Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Southeastern Washington desert Posts: 14,761	Benjamin Franklin said, and I paraphrase, "Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither." That's where I'm at. Want to be safe? Hide under your bed. Anything else has risk. The airport experience is irritating enough as it is. Try taking your shoes off and on with broken fingers and a ruptured disk. That's where I was at last month when I had to fly commercial to Kalifornia. I say profile the heck out of people. Works for El Al, the highest terrorist target in the world with a PERFECT safety record. __________________ Happy to serve.
	0

01-20-2010, 09:50 PM	#3
FastDoc Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Southeastern Washington desert Posts: 14,761	BTW, FWIW, I was tremendously impressed with the quality political discussions we've had here. Perfect gentlemen, and very intellegent and thoughtful. I'm a moderator at a firearm/world history forum that is of very high quality. We are not allowed to discuss politics there. Everyone here conducted themselves excellently. __________________ Happy to serve.
	0

01-21-2010, 12:07 AM	#5
Jim Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Abbotsford, BC, Canada Posts: 4,880	They have started marketing those enhanced drivers licenses here too. They are using border crossing as a selling point. I don't think I need one. I don't know if they have it or not, but there was talk here about fingerprints being required for drivers licenses some time in the future. __________________ "Be excellent to each other" "We are all human. Let's start to prove it!"
	0

01-21-2010, 04:28 AM	#7
Jim Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Abbotsford, BC, Canada Posts: 4,880	I've actually had similar experiences as the easy version you stated, from the Canadian side anyways. Some times they are pickier, but usually the trouble comes from the USA side... Often on the way back they don't even look at ID, how are you, where do you live, have a nice day. __________________ "Be excellent to each other" "We are all human. Let's start to prove it!"
	0

01-21-2010, 12:00 AM	#4
TeamCheap Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: directly under the earths sun............NOW Posts: 2,302	I've boycotted the airlines long ago. After watching how they'd rather spend 10 mil on death settlements from airplane accidents a year as oppossed to paying 100 mil to make them safe I decided they can go to hell. That was just for general plane safety back 15-20 years ago or more, I havnt flown since I was a kid and highly doubt I'll ever fly again. Those full body scanners are very invasive in my opinion and basically strip you down without you having to take your clothes off. Wasnt it the movie "total recall" that had a wall that the people walked behind that was a full body scanner and here it is now for real. Maybe they'll do away with the body scanners after they get everyone set up with an implanted I.D. chip. Soon everyone on the planet will be required to have their chip implanted so they'll know where everyone is and the ones without it will be detained. The enhanced drivers license has the RFID chip in it for quicker border crossing but not for use on planes yet.A guy at work just got his yesterday so he can go over to canada and party without the hassles at the border or atleast less hassles.
	0

01-21-2010, 02:46 AM	#6
TurboT Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Surrey, B.C., Canada Posts: 2,185	Wasn't it great when we could just hit the border and say,"Hi, I'm from Canada and I'm going down to the ball game.. " or, "I live in Surrey and I'm heading for gas, smokes and some other shopping..." We'd smile and wave at each other and be on our merry way. Amazing how we managed to do this without weed going one way, coke going the other, guns coming up, terrorists going down.. I really wonder how much of the unsavory's we really stopped then, or are stopping now. The criminal will always adapt, and the 'normal' people will always be inconvenienced by the few. The terrorists seem to be winning. They are striking fear into us, and turning us into a police state society. It's very sad.
	0

01-21-2010, 05:18 AM	#8
Reveeen Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: orbital platform Posts: 741	I'm just wondering how "we" got this thing turned around so that it is "our" problem? Why is the government even involved in this? Lets stop and look how others in the transportation industry deal with this. Lets look at the lowly cab owner/operator. In big cities a cab driver KNOWS there are places he will not go at night, either pick-up, or deliver. There are addresses he is not interested in picking up fares from. He inspects his passengers before letting them in his cab and estimates his chances of a profitable outcome. This lowly cab driver has what? Maybe $10,000 invested in his cab, and of course, his life. An airline company has what? Maybe 6.5 million invested in a plane, skilled staff to protect, and the lives of their passengers. Yet they accept no responsibility for their actions? In fact they take no responsibility for their actions and have somehow managed to off-load 100% of that responsibility. Something here is not making sense to me. Lets think about this. Maybe if those airplanes did not fly some places, if before you even bought a ticket you had to "qualify", if there was someone who simply talked to a person getting on a plane, maybe, just maybe, there wouldn't be a "problem"? (I'm thinking people that have a "life" would not be too thrilled about ending it?) profile the heck out of people I'm just wondering how/when air travel became a "right"? Car rental agencies put more effort in "checking you out" than airlines. Of course this means that those plane tickets will increase in price. But shouldn't using a service be "user pay" anyway? Clearly I am not interested in owning 1/1000000 of a percent of a full body scanner.
	0

01-21-2010, 11:04 AM	#9
Weldangrind Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Sardis, BC, Canada Posts: 25,977	I'm crafting a tin foil hat as we speak. 8O __________________ Weldangrind "I figure I'm well-prepared for coping with a bike that comes from the factory with unresolved issues and that rewards the self-reliant owner." - Buccaneer
	0

01-21-2010, 11:50 AM	#11
Weldangrind Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Sardis, BC, Canada Posts: 25,977	Not saying that at all. I'm simply troubled by all of this. Like you, I've suffered the indignities of air travel. Like TurboT, I appreciated the days when we could cross the border without any hassles. 9/11 changed all that... __________________ Weldangrind "I figure I'm well-prepared for coping with a bike that comes from the factory with unresolved issues and that rewards the self-reliant owner." - Buccaneer
	0

01-21-2010, 12:23 PM	#12
FastDoc Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Southeastern Washington desert Posts: 14,761	Maybe they'll do away with the body scanners after they get everyone set up with an implanted I.D. chip. Soon everyone on the planet will be required to have their chip implanted so they'll know where everyone is and the ones without it will be detained. You bet. At the risk of seeming over the top, bear in mind I am a Christian here... This is a good scenario for The Mark Of The Beast. 666. It will be required for all commerce sometime in man's future. Glad to say I will not be here for that. In the meantime, as my business and pleasure requires it, I will contine to fly commercial, although I will be irritated while doing so. Whenever practical though, I fly my own plane. With my own sidearm. __________________ Happy to serve.
	0

01-21-2010, 01:16 PM	#13
katoranger Join Date: May 2007 Location: Altamont, Kansas Posts: 15,103	I try to avoid flying (I don't like the trapped feeling). I would much rather drive someplace. Of course driving is not always practical. Since I really don't have anything to hide I don't mind the security precautions. I am all for profiling though. Except they may use that against white rednecks. __________________ You meet the nicest people on a Honda Clone.
	0

01-21-2010, 01:23 PM	#15
katoranger Join Date: May 2007 Location: Altamont, Kansas Posts: 15,103	Can I claim to be in a minority then? __________________ You meet the nicest people on a Honda Clone.
	0