Fuel Injection

[kirbo7106]

I saw this video on YouTube:



What are your thoughts on fuel injection?

[Megadan]

My thoughts on fuel injection are 2 fold.
1. It has the advantage of, if tuned right, being easier to start and overall better average fuel economy. Plus it can adjust for altitude. Downside is, it adds a power draw to an already taxed charging system.

2. A properly tuned carb is better for power and its simplicity makes it generally more reliable and easier to diagnose and repair. Downside is mainly that it has to be re jetted with any large enough change in altitude or climate to perform at its peak efficiency.

I am pro fuel injection, but on my hawk I will stay with a carb for now.

[old kid]

http://www.ecotrons.com/products/sma...injection_kit/

at $599 it would take an awful long time to pay for its self, thats almost half of what some of these bikes cost,

also like Dan said it will add draw on an already taxed electrical system, so it is quite possible there would be an added expense there as well.

But it would be interesting to see what the power gain would be.

[Megadan]

Originally Posted by old kid

But it would be interesting to see what the power gain would be.

In reality, a carburetor perfectly tuned to its current conditions will make more power and be more responsive than a properly tuned EFI setup. The problem is, going back to one point I made, carburetors tuned to that level of perfection are only good for those conditions. Change the air temp enough, altitude, humidity level, etc, and it's all out the window.

EFI offers the adaptability to maintain almost the same level of power as a perfectly tuned carburetor all of the time. That adaptability also allows it to adjust the AFRs to be within it's designated parameters all of the time. This is the real advantage of EFI. Your fuel economy, as a whole in the real world where everything changes, will generally be better and you will consistently have nearly the best power possible regardless of what day it is, if you climbed a mountain, or the temp dips 40 degrees at night.

This is also assuming, like the carburetor, the EFI tune is done correctly. The other advantage of EFI comes in various options, like fuel cut at zero throttle, the ability to do lean AFR's at light throttle/cruise/idle conditions (very good tuning required here) but to really take advantage of things like this, full ignition control is also very important.

Take those factors into account and this is where the fuel economy of EFI really comes into play.

I would personally love to do a microsquirt system on my Hawk...and my Goldwing. I can justify it for my Goldwing to an extent, because a 20mpg gain (already documented on one GL1000) on that bike would save a ton of fuel and cash. The cheapest that could be pulled off would still be in about the same range as the Ecotrons system, if not a tad bit more expensive.

To keep with the cheap theme of the Hawk, myself and a couple of others have been eyeballing this system, and one member has attempted to use it on his Vader 125 with mixed results. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/micr...460.0.0.aXtfIl

The 28mm throttle body offered in the kit will bolt straight up in place of the carburetor, and has a more reasonable entry cost below $300.

[old kid]

The manufacturer is claiming 20% less fuel and a 50% power gain, which i find to be a huge stretch of the imagination.

I have to agree with you that the carb on the hawk is gonna stay, I replaced mine with the mikuni and have no issues, I do some riding at higher elevations and a simple adjustment of the air mixture screw after its warmed up does the trick. I got the bike over the winter and didnt ride it very much in the cold weather so I will be retuning it this fall for the cold weather, right now im running a 125 main and 25 pilot the needle clip is in the center and the mixture screw is normally out 1 3/4 turns , the elevation here is around 400ft, some of the places I go in the mountains will get up to 1200ft with an average temp dip of about 10deg.

[LunaTech]

I may be wrong (I am a lot) but wouldn't you need at least an O2 sensor for the system to operate at the intended performance and efficiency? I'm sure it works without it but that is one of the main advantages of FI is it being able to self regulate as conditions change. If there are no sensors reporting back to the ECU then it has no information to use to self regulate. Just thinking.

[JerryHawk250]

Originally Posted by old kid

The manufacturer is claiming 20% less fuel and a 50% power gain, which i find to be a huge stretch of the imagination.

50% power gain is stretching it a bit. 20% less fuel can be done. I'm a big EFI fan. Been tuning EFI for the pass 13-14 years. I have taken stock 5.3's and 6.0 GM and gained 20-25% HP. Lots more with turbos added. I'm planning on doing the EFI conversion towards the end of the summer maybe fall. Aliexpress has a kit for under $300. The only weak link I see in that kit is the fuel pump but that's an easy fix with a better pump. Only drawback on EFI is the tuning. If you have no experience in tuning it could cost a small fortune to have someone like me to do it. lol.

[JerryHawk250]

Originally Posted by LunaTech

I may be wrong (I am a lot) but wouldn't you need at least an O2 sensor for the system to operate at the intended performance and efficiency? I'm sure it works without it but that is one of the main advantages of FI is it being able to self regulate as conditions change. If there are no sensors reporting back to the ECU then it has no information to use to self regulate. Just thinking.

I agree.

[Megadan]

Honestly, on a lightly modified Hawk with properly tuned EFI, even if there was little to no power gain compared to a well tuned carb, I can almost promise there would be a decent gain in fuel economy. low-mid 60mpg with the carburetor could likely see somewhere in the mid 70 to low 80mpg range. Plus, starting the bike would be a lot easier.

[wamey]

Originally Posted by JerryHawk250

50% power gain is stretching it a bit. 20% less fuel can be done. I'm a big EFI fan. Been tuning EFI for the pass 13-14 years. I have taken stock 5.3's and 6.0 GM and gained 20-25% HP. Lots more with turbos added. I'm planning on doing the EFI conversion towards the end of the summer maybe fall. Aliexpress has a kit for under $300. The only weak link I see in that kit is the fuel pump but that's an easy fix with a better pump. Only drawback on EFI is the tuning. If you have no experience in tuning it could cost a small fortune to have someone like me to do it. lol.

You should buy a bunch and sell them as a bolt on kit like the digital cluster guy! Or document what you did on a thread here and I'll follow along at home

[dpl096]

Originally Posted by LunaTech

I may be wrong (I am a lot) but wouldn't you need at least an O2 sensor for the system to operate at the intended performance and efficiency? I'm sure it works without it but that is one of the main advantages of FI is it being able to self regulate as conditions change. If there are no sensors reporting back to the ECU then it has no information to use to self regulate. Just thinking.

Exactly.... If its not regulating then its not self adjusting to changing conditions...like a carb...circle starts again. Would love to see some reliable data and usage review...meaning .....reviews from people on CR. We've got some damn smart folks twisting throttles here.. . folks that can be trusted.

[Megadan]

While an O2 sensor is beneficial, believe it or not there are ways to run O2 with no uego correction. In fact, in many instances a narrowband sensor is more than sufficient for most daily driver applications. Where a wideband really comes into its own is the tuning side of things, and with a smart enough ems, target AFR programming.

[pistolclass]

If you had a dead battery would EFI make the kickstarter useless? If so that is too big a trade off for me.

[ricardoguitars]

EFI won't work without a working battery.

[BlackBike]

Hence the word ELECTRONIC f.i.

Guys this is a cool thread! That one that Dan posted looks promising with plenty of info at a decent price. Wonder if somon e like 2lz (who has E.F.I. experience as reported) could strap one of these on to their nc250 and tune away?