This Will Appeal To The Bicycle Nerds

**cheesy** · 06-18-2016, 09:39 AM

It's not Chinese. Not yet, anyway. But this is so cool. Brought to my attention by a fellow bike geek in Germany.
http://pinion.eu/en/

FastDoc · 06-18-2016, 10:41 AM

Good morning Cheesy! Your link did not play so well on my iPad, but I think I was able to get the gist of the technology

Definitely looks cool and innovative, but I honestly don't understand the motivation to simply not used derailers.

The efficiency of a chain is greater than 98%. It is smooth, effective, reliable, inexpensive, and certainly proven by scores of years of experience. It is cheap to manufacture, interchangeable, and is obviously made to work with existing frame technologies.

Non derailer systems might be cleaner, and lower maintenance, but in reality the conventional system requires very little maintenance, and the maintenance that it does require is pretty darn simple.

I am a partial Retrogrouch myself. I don't see the need for disc brakes on road bikes, although I strongly favor them on mountain bikes. I can't comment about cyclocross, I have never tried it.

I also don't see the need for hydraulic rim brakes, or electronic shifting.

One advantage to the technology that you cited, as I see it, is that there would not be any redundant ratios. In other words, my race bike has 22 gears, but in reality, probably only about 18 unique gears, and out of those may be 15 or so or spaced in such a way that they would be regularly and efficiently use. This is just a guess, I have not studied any of the charts…

Therefore, something that provided even as few as 12 real well spaced deliberately chosen gears, would be equivalent to maybe an 18 or 20 speed conventional bicycle. I do see the appeal in that, but I would not consider that a major motivating force to change frames and technology.

I appreciate it, would like to ride it, but I would probably be more inclined just to stick with what works.

Weldangrind · 06-18-2016, 01:56 PM

I'm fascinated by the concept, although I'd not likely ever buy one.

**cheesy** · 06-18-2016, 04:53 PM

I would imagine that the cost of my Rivendell would pale in comparison to the 18 speed setup, so I do not think there is one in my future. And it cannot be retro fitted without a boatload of money. But still...

Not really new, but a variation on a theme. The German company, Adler, had a bicycle with a sliding gear 3 speed crank prior to WWll. Schulmpf and a couple others manufacture similar units but are 2 and 3 speed.

Doc-I'm not a big fan of derailleurs, anymore. I lost interest with advent of SIS. That may make me more of a retrogrouch than you.

My newest one dates from 1982. That said, it has worked flawlessly and never missed a shift during PBP or several 24hr TTs. And you are correct about gear overlap, but don't be surprised if the usable gears are closer to 12. I have one bike set up with a Sturmey AM mid range 3 speed hub and a Cyclo triple cog cluster(both date from 1950). I get nine well spaced gears.

But shifting to use those gears in a linear fashion is like driving a semi with a dual range transmission.

So, I end up with 5 usable gears and I no longer have the legs for the highest gear, which something like 127".

wheelbender6 · 06-18-2016, 06:02 PM

Looks heavier than a derailleur and cogs, but the 8 speed internal gear hubs are too.
Simplicity has always been part of the allure of bicycles to me, but I would love to test drive that gear box.

FastDoc · 06-18-2016, 11:40 PM

I have a couple folding bikes to use with the plane. A ICH and a belt in that application would be very nice and clean.

Other than that I simply find no flaw in derailers.

Cheesy I also can't pull the top gears on the Motobecane. Downhill in top gear I'll spin out at 49.5 so far but the lowest gears are quite useful lol.

STIs are the cats arse though. I have 3 vintage Treks. Two with down tube indexed shifters,( a 1000 and an 1100) one with bar ends (2120 CF sport touring bike) but I prefer the STIs on the Motobecane. Just too nice for frequent small 1 tooth gear changes to keep an underpowered guy such as myself in an effective cadence range.

**cheesy** · 06-19-2016, 11:01 AM

The day has arrived that I have had to explain how friction shifting works to folks that grew up with STI and are now collecting 'Vintage Bikes'*. The first few times I was like

. Now it's, "Ok, one more time".

I don't despise STI and it's ilk, I remember the introduction and thought it was fantastic but too expensive. Then the headaches with maintenance showed up and I felt that STI was a solution looking for a problem. JMO. That said, all the gear hub bikes I own have indexed shifting. If they didn't, I'd end up with a can of metal filings. I've seen it in stuff brought to me for repair.

Now, to make myself a liar, I was reminded by my Mom that I do own a derailleur equipped bike with STI. It's a 2009, or so, Trek 3500 MTB. I cashed in a boatload of hotel points for it but was under whelmed by just about everything about the bike. Mom wanted a bike so I gave it to her. She turns eighty this week and she is done riding. So, the Trek will be heading back into my stable soon. I'll give it another chance.

I thumbed my nose at Electronic Fuel Injection, too, for the longest time and now the only carbs at Chez Fromage are on the CX and lawn equipment.

wb6-I agree some what with the weight part. I think that if you took touring bikes in the same price range, one IGH and one derailleur equipped, and weighed ALL the drive train components, they'd be pretty close. Get into the weight weenie world and derailleur wins hands down.
The 8 speed Alfine the nicest shifting hubs I've ever owned, better than my Sram S7. I just wonder how long the Alfines will last and if there will parts availability in 50 years,(it's hard now) like Sturmey Archer. I have seventy year old SA hubs that work like the day they left the assembly line. I can get SA internals from Amazon.

*The ones you and I raced and toured on, Doc.

FastDoc · 06-19-2016, 11:29 PM

I currently do not have any friction shifted bicycles, but of course, that is what we grew up on, raced and toured. It's a perfectly good technology, will always work well, and everything is compatible with everything. I have discovered that anything above seven speeds though, it is pretty hard to index it, especially in a loud environment.

Even above six speeds.

As far as mountain bikes go, I really am 90% on the road. I only use the mountain bike in the winter time, and I am fortunate enough to have a good place to ride it with a small mountain/large hill to climb near my house. Overall though, I am not a mountain bike person. Just the aesthetics don't work for me.

It sounds like your mother had a very good run of it. Good for her!

BillR · 06-22-2016, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheesy

It's not Chinese. Not yet, anyway. But this is so cool. Brought to my attention by a fellow bike geek in Germany.
http://pinion.eu/en/

Oh man, you just hit my UberGeek zone. I always like to check out different drive trains. I almost bought a shaft drive a one point.
Read through all the discussions. Good points all around. The biggest thing I see with this version, is potentially less maintenance for people to neglect...
I would love to find a belt drive conversion for my Skorp...

BillR

06-18-2016, 09:39 AM	#1
cheesy Moderator Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Elburn, IL Posts: 5,801	This Will Appeal To The Bicycle Nerds It's not Chinese. Not yet, anyway. But this is so cool. Brought to my attention by a fellow bike geek in Germany. http://pinion.eu/en/ __________________ Cheesy ______________________________________ 07 Hi Bird Enduro-Flown the Coop 07 Ural Gear Up 79 Honda CX500 77 VeloSolex 4600 V3 73 VeloSolex 3800 I'm making this up as I go.-Indiana Jones Telling me something 'is for my own good', is a fast way to a fat lip.-Me I don't even care about my own problems, why should I care about yours?-Quote on one of my favorite t-shirts
	0

06-18-2016, 10:41 AM	#2
FastDoc Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Southeastern Washington desert Posts: 14,761	Good morning Cheesy! Your link did not play so well on my iPad, but I think I was able to get the gist of the technology Definitely looks cool and innovative, but I honestly don't understand the motivation to simply not used derailers. The efficiency of a chain is greater than 98%. It is smooth, effective, reliable, inexpensive, and certainly proven by scores of years of experience. It is cheap to manufacture, interchangeable, and is obviously made to work with existing frame technologies. Non derailer systems might be cleaner, and lower maintenance, but in reality the conventional system requires very little maintenance, and the maintenance that it does require is pretty darn simple. I am a partial Retrogrouch myself. I don't see the need for disc brakes on road bikes, although I strongly favor them on mountain bikes. I can't comment about cyclocross, I have never tried it. I also don't see the need for hydraulic rim brakes, or electronic shifting. One advantage to the technology that you cited, as I see it, is that there would not be any redundant ratios. In other words, my race bike has 22 gears, but in reality, probably only about 18 unique gears, and out of those may be 15 or so or spaced in such a way that they would be regularly and efficiently use. This is just a guess, I have not studied any of the charts… Therefore, something that provided even as few as 12 real well spaced deliberately chosen gears, would be equivalent to maybe an 18 or 20 speed conventional bicycle. I do see the appeal in that, but I would not consider that a major motivating force to change frames and technology. I appreciate it, would like to ride it, but I would probably be more inclined just to stick with what works. __________________ Happy to serve.
	0

06-18-2016, 01:56 PM	#3
Weldangrind Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Sardis, BC, Canada Posts: 25,977	I'm fascinated by the concept, although I'd not likely ever buy one. __________________ Weldangrind "I figure I'm well-prepared for coping with a bike that comes from the factory with unresolved issues and that rewards the self-reliant owner." - Buccaneer
	0

06-18-2016, 04:53 PM	#4
cheesy Moderator Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Elburn, IL Posts: 5,801	I would imagine that the cost of my Rivendell would pale in comparison to the 18 speed setup, so I do not think there is one in my future. And it cannot be retro fitted without a boatload of money. But still... Not really new, but a variation on a theme. The German company, Adler, had a bicycle with a sliding gear 3 speed crank prior to WWll. Schulmpf and a couple others manufacture similar units but are 2 and 3 speed. Doc-I'm not a big fan of derailleurs, anymore. I lost interest with advent of SIS. That may make me more of a retrogrouch than you. My newest one dates from 1982. That said, it has worked flawlessly and never missed a shift during PBP or several 24hr TTs. And you are correct about gear overlap, but don't be surprised if the usable gears are closer to 12. I have one bike set up with a Sturmey AM mid range 3 speed hub and a Cyclo triple cog cluster(both date from 1950). I get nine well spaced gears. But shifting to use those gears in a linear fashion is like driving a semi with a dual range transmission. So, I end up with 5 usable gears and I no longer have the legs for the highest gear, which something like 127". __________________ Cheesy ______________________________________ 07 Hi Bird Enduro-Flown the Coop 07 Ural Gear Up 79 Honda CX500 77 VeloSolex 4600 V3 73 VeloSolex 3800 I'm making this up as I go.-Indiana Jones Telling me something 'is for my own good', is a fast way to a fat lip.-Me I don't even care about my own problems, why should I care about yours?-Quote on one of my favorite t-shirts
	0

06-18-2016, 06:02 PM	#5
wheelbender6 Join Date: May 2015 Location: Houston area Posts: 1,902	Looks heavier than a derailleur and cogs, but the 8 speed internal gear hubs are too. Simplicity has always been part of the allure of bicycles to me, but I would love to test drive that gear box. __________________ "Its not WHAT you ride; its THAT you ride"
	0

06-18-2016, 11:40 PM	#6
FastDoc Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Southeastern Washington desert Posts: 14,761	I have a couple folding bikes to use with the plane. A ICH and a belt in that application would be very nice and clean. Other than that I simply find no flaw in derailers. Cheesy I also can't pull the top gears on the Motobecane. Downhill in top gear I'll spin out at 49.5 so far but the lowest gears are quite useful lol. STIs are the cats arse though. I have 3 vintage Treks. Two with down tube indexed shifters,( a 1000 and an 1100) one with bar ends (2120 CF sport touring bike) but I prefer the STIs on the Motobecane. Just too nice for frequent small 1 tooth gear changes to keep an underpowered guy such as myself in an effective cadence range. __________________ Happy to serve.
	0

06-19-2016, 11:01 AM	#7
cheesy Moderator Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Elburn, IL Posts: 5,801	The day has arrived that I have had to explain how friction shifting works to folks that grew up with STI and are now collecting 'Vintage Bikes'. The first few times I was like . Now it's, "Ok, one more time". I don't despise STI and it's ilk, I remember the introduction and thought it was fantastic but too expensive. Then the headaches with maintenance showed up and I felt that STI was a solution looking for a problem. JMO. That said, all the gear hub bikes I own have indexed shifting. If they didn't, I'd end up with a can of metal filings. I've seen it in stuff brought to me for repair. Now, to make myself a liar, I was reminded by my Mom that I do own a derailleur equipped bike with STI. It's a 2009, or so, Trek 3500 MTB. I cashed in a boatload of hotel points for it but was under whelmed by just about everything about the bike. Mom wanted a bike so I gave it to her. She turns eighty this week and she is done riding. So, the Trek will be heading back into my stable soon. I'll give it another chance. I thumbed my nose at Electronic Fuel Injection, too, for the longest time and now the only carbs at Chez Fromage are on the CX and lawn equipment. wb6-I agree some what with the weight part. I think that if you took touring bikes in the same price range, one IGH and one derailleur equipped, and weighed ALL the drive train components, they'd be pretty close. Get into the weight weenie world and derailleur wins hands down. The 8 speed Alfine the nicest shifting hubs I've ever owned, better than my Sram S7. I just wonder how long the Alfines will last and if there will parts availability in 50 years,(it's hard now) like Sturmey Archer. I have seventy year old SA hubs that work like the day they left the assembly line. I can get SA internals from Amazon. The ones you and I raced and toured on, Doc. __________________ Cheesy ______________________________________ 07 Hi Bird Enduro-Flown the Coop 07 Ural Gear Up 79 Honda CX500 77 VeloSolex 4600 V3 73 VeloSolex 3800 I'm making this up as I go.-Indiana Jones Telling me something 'is for my own good', is a fast way to a fat lip.-Me I don't even care about my own problems, why should I care about yours?-Quote on one of my favorite t-shirts
	0

06-19-2016, 11:29 PM	#8
FastDoc Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Southeastern Washington desert Posts: 14,761	I currently do not have any friction shifted bicycles, but of course, that is what we grew up on, raced and toured. It's a perfectly good technology, will always work well, and everything is compatible with everything. I have discovered that anything above seven speeds though, it is pretty hard to index it, especially in a loud environment. Even above six speeds. As far as mountain bikes go, I really am 90% on the road. I only use the mountain bike in the winter time, and I am fortunate enough to have a good place to ride it with a small mountain/large hill to climb near my house. Overall though, I am not a mountain bike person. Just the aesthetics don't work for me. It sounds like your mother had a very good run of it. Good for her! __________________ Happy to serve.
	0