Due Diligence

Wigwam Jones · 07-13-2017, 12:58 PM

As some of you know, I'm returning to motorcycles from 35+ years away. A lot has changed in that time. I found myself VERY interested in Chinese motorcycles, and I'm currently putting in the work to try to balance risk with opportunity. And everyone's ability to balance risk is different; so there is almost never one right answer.

However, as most seasoned (read 'old') guys know, even though there are some consumer protections out there, often is is 'buyer beware' in situations like these, or as the Latin phrase puts it, 'Caveat Emptor'.

One of the things I am doing is putting together a list of dealers selling Chinese motorcycles. As most of you are, I am interested in prices and features. But I'm also interested in the people selling these bikes.

As a result, I am putting Google to work to find out what can be found out.

The first thing I do is Google for the business name and "BBB" for "Better Business Bureau." Most dealers are not members, but that doesn't mean that the BBB doesn't have a file on them. Check to make sure the result is actually the dealer in question - many business names are common, so reference the street address (FYI, if an online dealer does NOT HAVE a street address listed, beware).

BBB often assigns a letter grade, from A+ to F.

It does not mean that if a business has an A+ you won't have problems with them, nor does it mean that if a business has an F you will have problems with them. It is an indicator, something you may wish to consider; nothing more.

And you should read the complaints, if there are any. Sometimes it is clear that the people complaining had unreasonable expectations. Other times, however, the business has tons of complaints and never responds. Other times they are rude (amazing when their responses are published and they apparently don't care that the world can see what absolute a-holes they are). Other times, they try to respond and make the situation better.

Here is an example. Please do not take this as any kind of endorsement or complaint about the business I am using as an example; it is just that, an example. I do not work for or with any motorcycle business whatsoever, this is strictly my own opinion as an individual.

https://www.bbb.org/central-texas/bu...and-complaints

Here is an example of a Chinese motorcycle dealer that is a member of the BBB and lists it on their website:

https://www.bbb.org/central-texas/bu...n-tx-235976231

There are other ways to research reviews on various companies. Just Google for the business name and 'review' or 'complaint' and see what you find. There are lots of independent businesses that offer places for people to comment on other businesses. However, you have to use caution with those kinds of reviews. You never know if the complaints or the positive reviews are real. You never know if they are angry customers who didn't know how to maintain their gear or who had outrageous expectations, of if the people saying great things about the company are paid shills or even company employees. However, you can often get a feeling for the kinds of complaints you see. It's not terribly hard to figure out trends and see common complaints across many locations.

I've even seen Youtube videos made by (supposedly) angry consumers who urge people not to buy from this guy or that guy, etc. Of course, the same caveat holds true - you never know if they are telling the truth, telling the truth from their point of view only, or just flat-out making stuff up. You have to use your common sense.

Anyway, hope that helps. I keep seeing questions from people asking if this or that dealer is any good. Reasonable question to ask, but what you get is anecdotal responses - a terrible dealer might do 70% of their orders correctly. You might be one of the 70% who got lucky. But what about the other 30%?

By the same token, a dealer could have 99.99% great service, but you happen to be the one person in a thousand who has a problem. Doesn't make it feel any better that you're one of the only ones who got burned.

So I would urge everyone to get their learn on before plunking down their hard-earned dollars. We all have our own levels of risk that we're comfortable with, but it never hurts to do your homework before buying.

2LZ · 07-13-2017, 02:00 PM

If you want a tried and true, honest, courteous, informative dealer that will answer the phone every time, be cordial, helpful and informative....that includes a huge stock of parts, readily available for shipment, buy from CSC. The TT250 will cost you more but it's the "top of the line" Hondoid and CSC is a real company with real people who back their products and service 100%.

If you want to save a few shillings, buy elsewhere and cross your fingers and toes.

That's pretty much it in a nutshell.

Wigwam Jones · 07-13-2017, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2LZ

If you want a tried and true, honest, courteous, informative dealer that will answer the phone every time, be cordial, helpful and informative....that includes a huge stock of parts, readily available for shipment, buy from CSC. The TT250 will cost you more but it's the "top of the line" Hondoid and CSC is a real company with real people who back their products and service 100%.

If you want to save a few shillings, buy elsewhere and cross your fingers and toes.

That's pretty much it in a nutshell.

I would agree that CSC has an excellent online reputation as well as an A+ BBB rating:

https://www.bbb.org/tulsa/business-r...sa-ok-38002991

However, it's not as simple as that. There are very few 100% crooked dealers, and there are definitely no 100% perfect dealers. Everything exists along a continuum of risk versus reward.

The risk is poor performance. The reward is lower prices and perhaps higher quality.

I agree that if one wants no risk, then they should pay more. On the other hand, if that is taken to the logical conclusion, no one should buy buy Chinese motorcycles at all. Buy an American motorcycle or a Japanese bike new off the showroom floor with a warranty.

Now, most of us (me included) are willing to assume some risk in return for a better deal. That is, I think, pretty much the whole point of motorcycles like the Hawk - bang for the buck.

But the tools I mentioned are good for helping people to balance that risk with reward. Just saying "only buy from XYZ" isn't doing research.

2LZ · 07-13-2017, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wigwam Jones

Buy an American motorcycle or a Japanese bike new off the showroom floor with a warranty.

The TT250 does come with a 1 year, unlimited mileage warranty and many here, including myself, have seen them go above and beyond that.

I have purchased from all three. Local China Bike dealer, an online dealer with a poor BBB rating (SPS) and CSC. I've been one of the lucky ones that have had good luck with all of them.

You'll also find that some dealers here get great reviews for a while....then something will happen and they'll tank without explanation. ASPUSA is a prime example. I'm not sure if they've picked their game back up again or not. I know just about every dealer ran out of basically all dual sports there for a while. I'm also not sure if the available inventory has improved. I'm not shopping at the moment.

Whoever you decide to purchase from, I hope it works out for you and please, send pics! We like "new, shiny"......

Azhule · 07-13-2017, 03:58 PM

Stay away from "Manny" (Mr. Gaurav aka "Manny" Sharma)... this shady turd has at least 12 websites to sell China Bikes and ATVs... I no longer wonder why he needs that manny websites after he treated us

Bruce's · 07-13-2017, 04:39 PM

I think there is a thread already on this site with dealership comments ,you might want to search for it .

Wigwam Jones · 07-13-2017, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce's

I think there is a thread already on this site with dealership comments ,you might want to search for it .

I wasn't looking for dealership comments, I was offering some advice on how to research dealers.

07-13-2017, 12:58 PM	#1
Wigwam Jones Join Date: Jul 2017 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 86	Due Diligence As some of you know, I'm returning to motorcycles from 35+ years away. A lot has changed in that time. I found myself VERY interested in Chinese motorcycles, and I'm currently putting in the work to try to balance risk with opportunity. And everyone's ability to balance risk is different; so there is almost never one right answer. However, as most seasoned (read 'old') guys know, even though there are some consumer protections out there, often is is 'buyer beware' in situations like these, or as the Latin phrase puts it, 'Caveat Emptor'. One of the things I am doing is putting together a list of dealers selling Chinese motorcycles. As most of you are, I am interested in prices and features. But I'm also interested in the people selling these bikes. As a result, I am putting Google to work to find out what can be found out. The first thing I do is Google for the business name and "BBB" for "Better Business Bureau." Most dealers are not members, but that doesn't mean that the BBB doesn't have a file on them. Check to make sure the result is actually the dealer in question - many business names are common, so reference the street address (FYI, if an online dealer does NOT HAVE a street address listed, beware). BBB often assigns a letter grade, from A+ to F. It does not mean that if a business has an A+ you won't have problems with them, nor does it mean that if a business has an F you will have problems with them. It is an indicator, something you may wish to consider; nothing more. And you should read the complaints, if there are any. Sometimes it is clear that the people complaining had unreasonable expectations. Other times, however, the business has tons of complaints and never responds. Other times they are rude (amazing when their responses are published and they apparently don't care that the world can see what absolute a-holes they are). Other times, they try to respond and make the situation better. Here is an example. Please do not take this as any kind of endorsement or complaint about the business I am using as an example; it is just that, an example. I do not work for or with any motorcycle business whatsoever, this is strictly my own opinion as an individual. https://www.bbb.org/central-texas/bu...and-complaints Here is an example of a Chinese motorcycle dealer that is a member of the BBB and lists it on their website: https://www.bbb.org/central-texas/bu...n-tx-235976231 There are other ways to research reviews on various companies. Just Google for the business name and 'review' or 'complaint' and see what you find. There are lots of independent businesses that offer places for people to comment on other businesses. However, you have to use caution with those kinds of reviews. You never know if the complaints or the positive reviews are real. You never know if they are angry customers who didn't know how to maintain their gear or who had outrageous expectations, of if the people saying great things about the company are paid shills or even company employees. However, you can often get a feeling for the kinds of complaints you see. It's not terribly hard to figure out trends and see common complaints across many locations. I've even seen Youtube videos made by (supposedly) angry consumers who urge people not to buy from this guy or that guy, etc. Of course, the same caveat holds true - you never know if they are telling the truth, telling the truth from their point of view only, or just flat-out making stuff up. You have to use your common sense. Anyway, hope that helps. I keep seeing questions from people asking if this or that dealer is any good. Reasonable question to ask, but what you get is anecdotal responses - a terrible dealer might do 70% of their orders correctly. You might be one of the 70% who got lucky. But what about the other 30%? By the same token, a dealer could have 99.99% great service, but you happen to be the one person in a thousand who has a problem. Doesn't make it feel any better that you're one of the only ones who got burned. So I would urge everyone to get their learn on before plunking down their hard-earned dollars. We all have our own levels of risk that we're comfortable with, but it never hurts to do your homework before buying.
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07-13-2017, 02:00 PM	#2
2LZ Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Volcano, Ca Posts: 7,065	If you want a tried and true, honest, courteous, informative dealer that will answer the phone every time, be cordial, helpful and informative....that includes a huge stock of parts, readily available for shipment, buy from CSC. The TT250 will cost you more but it's the "top of the line" Hondoid and CSC is a real company with real people who back their products and service 100%. If you want to save a few shillings, buy elsewhere and cross your fingers and toes. That's pretty much it in a nutshell. __________________ "Light a fire for a man, and you heat him for a day. Light a man on fire, and you heat him for the rest of his life." 2007 Suzuki DRZ400S (SM convert) 2009 Q Link XP 200 1967 BSA B25 250cc Starfire 2022 Royal Enfield Interceptor 650 2023 Royal Enfield Scram 411 1948 Royal Enfield Model G 350
	4

07-13-2017, 03:58 PM	#5
Azhule Join Date: Dec 2015 Location: CO Posts: 1,525	Stay away from "Manny" (Mr. Gaurav aka "Manny" Sharma)... this shady turd has at least 12 websites to sell China Bikes and ATVs... I no longer wonder why he needs that manny websites after he treated us __________________ "Think as you like... but this self proclaimed Professor is always right" - Buckshot "You never know what someone is hiding beneath their smile..." - NinjaTom - R.I.P.
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07-13-2017, 04:39 PM	#6
Bruce's Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Sudbury ,Ontario Posts: 855	I think there is a thread already on this site with dealership comments ,you might want to search for it .
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