15W40 4T engine oil -unobtainium?

ChillRider · 12-02-2020, 03:51 AM

Sooo.... an oil thread

Jokes apart, the service manual for my ZongShen Sierra/ZS200-GY2/LZX200-GY2 (depending on your market), despite using a close copy of the Yamaha TW200 engine, recommends just "15W40 SF" oil. That's it. No outside temp ranges, no driving conditions differentiation, no JASO MA/MA2 certification, nothing.

The thing is, that weight of oil is nearly impossible to come by in "motorcycle grade" 4T formulations (with at least a JASO MA endorsement), at least in Greece. The most common commercially available grades seem to be:

10W40 (an OK substitute in colder months, usually semi-synthetic)
20W50 (OK for spring-summer, but struggling on cold starts, and usually oil of that weight is also 100% mineral, so not the best for durability, no matter how thick it is)
15W50 (a good compromise between better cold start performance and top-range protection, and oils of that grade are almost always at least semi-synthetic).
There is also more specialty/expensive stuff like 20W40, 10W50, 5W30 or even 10W60 for enduro racing etc., if someone really needs it, but no 15W40, nope.

The most commonly available oils in a 15W-40 weight seem to be very basic engine mineral oils, often marketed as "Heavy Duty Diesel" or "Fleet/Multipurpose" or even "Agricultural" use, and often only available at quite low API grades, like API SG grades or even lower. API SF/CD grades are not uncommon, and of course no claims of suitability for wet clutch applications. And nope, we don't get Shell Rotella with its fancy JASO MA endorsement here

Can one really pour in such a basic mineral oil in a motorcycle crankcase and expect it to perform? I've heard stories of delivery guys just using the cheapest 20W50 motor oil they can find for their (4-stroke, wet-clutch) underbone motorcycles (Honda Cub, Yamaha Townmate and similar, with a semi-auto transmission), not even caring about whether it's suitable for wet clutch applications, but those motorcycles are obviously designed for that kind of abuse, and their wet clutch is not actuated in the same manner as a fully manual motorcycle.

I guess that such basic/general purpose oils won't have much in the way of specialized friction modifiers/energy conserving additives, exactly in order to be compatible with a broad array of engines (e.g. some "Agricultural" oils claim suitability with wet clutch or even hydraulic applications), but are theyt really safe to use without a JASO MA/MA2 endorsement? Or are those chinabikes built to cope with even the lowest grade of commercially available oil, if necessary?

Wild Dog · 12-02-2020, 08:06 AM

You are overthinking it, if we take Greece weateher in mind, the motorcycle can run any motorcycle oil from 10w40 to 20w50. Just check any Yamaha manual with the same engine you have.
The chinese manual are crappy at best and they will just list one type of oil, instead of giving you the chart of oils to use according to the weather you have.

About the 20w40, that a lot of people like to bash. These engines are really basic engines from mid 80s to early 90s, they were almost made in mind to use 20w40.
In fact Yamaha stills sells 20w40 under the yamalube brand.

Down the road, changing oil often is more important than using a ultra plus special one of a kind oil.

ChillRider · 12-02-2020, 08:36 AM

Well, I just wanted to use the closest oil to the "recommended" specs, and it seems that 15W40 isn't even made in a motorcycle-specific grade, at least by none of the major/easily found brands. Unless the hint in the manual was that the engine is so ghetto that it could chug even the most basic heavy diesel truck oil...

Even locally made brands of motor oil that do have motorcycle-specific oils in their lineup, usually only offer 10W40 and 20W50, and maaaaaybe 15W50 if they want to be fancy. 15W40, it seems, is reserved only for HD Diesel or multifleet/basic car oil.

In practice, in the one year + 3 months I have owned the bike, I have filled it with either 20W50 (after the recommendation of my mechanic) or 15W50 (after finding 20W50 a bit too thick during cold starts once the outside temperatures start lowering). I'm gonna try 10W40 in the next oil change, due soon.

Then again I do quite frequent oil changes (500-600 km for mineral, 700-800 km for semi synthetic) so I can adapt easily to changing conditions ;-)

alex_in_az · 12-02-2020, 09:53 AM

I run 10W40 4T without issue and I would bet my high temps are at least as high as yours

Wild Dog · 12-02-2020, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChillRider

Well, I just wanted to use the closest oil to the "recommended" specs, and it seems that 15W40 isn't even made in a motorcycle-specific grade, at least by none of the major/easily found brands. Unless the hint in the manual was that the engine is so ghetto that it could chug even the most basic heavy diesel truck oil...

The hint is that manual is so ghetto that they didn't even bother to put the weather chart... When they say 15w40 SF they mean 15w40 api service grade SF, but they are even that lazy....

The engine is not ghetto, is just a simple design and if 20w50 seems too heavy when cold, then yes you should try a 10w40 or a 15w50 the engine will be able to "drink" them much easier when cold.

ChillRider · 12-02-2020, 11:01 AM

FWIW, 15W40 SF seems to be the lowest/oldest widely available grade of oil you can buy today -every noname petroleum products distributor and gas station will have an offering in that weight and grade, so I don't know if that's why they chose this specific type in the manual.

Wild Dog · 12-02-2020, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChillRider

FWIW, 15W40 SF seems to be the lowest/oldest widely available grade of oil you can buy today -every noname petroleum products distributor and gas station will have an offering in that weight and grade, so I don't know if that's why they chose this specific type in the manual.

15w40 is just the Viscosity, you can even find them in SM,SL and SJ.
What is old is the SF specification it's from the late 70s and early 80s, my guess is that they put SF, because newer specs may have addictives that could harm the clutch.

http://www.pqiamerica.com/devilsindisguise.htm

https://www.api.org/products-and-ser...s#tab-gasoline

Down the road, imho we should stick with oils made for motorcycle that are either JASO MA or MA2.

Plump Kibbles · 12-02-2020, 07:15 PM

My book does state some weight / weather recommendations.. but I asked the guys at my local NAPA - everyone there that rides all year said 10W-40.. So that's what I'm sticking with; non-synthetic. . .

There's no one ultimate, the one, super uber duper awesome, does it all - oil.. I would suggest something non-synthetic for the wet clutch as was suggested to me. Also additive free..

Good luck!

grumpyunk · 12-02-2020, 08:08 PM

I think, no basis other than being around for a long time, that you would be fine with just about any that do NOT have a 'friction modifier' additive. The listed viscosities available should be adequate for the appropriate temperature range given.
My Honda CB350 recommended plain old 10W30, nothing special except the Sx, spark ignition API rating.
If you have flat tappets or cam followers, I would go with the Rotella/Delvac/brain-fade for RPM DELO - came to me. Any of the CD rated have a bit more ZDDP as I understand, which helps the flat tappet/cam follower handle the sliding friction better, and extends their life. I think.
I have two or three varieties of diesel rated. I am currently using the WalMart Super Tech 10W40 diesel rated lube. No synthetic, just plain old natural.
The CB350 didn't care one way or another, and depending on your engine design, OHC or OHV, they should be good. The CG250 is a simple design that doesn't seem to care from all I have read. Not sure what engine is being discussed.
tom,

culcune · 12-03-2020, 01:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grumpyunk

The CG250 is a simple design that doesn't seem to care from all I have read. Not sure what engine is being discussed.
tom,

The posters bike is a bike we used to have years ago in the US. It uses a clone of the engine found in the TW200. Pretty much the exact clone. So, like the SSR XF250 (clone of the Suzuki TU250 but uses a carb), these bikes buck the trend of using the common Honda-clone-ish engines most all Chinese dual-sports generally use.

Megadan · 12-03-2020, 01:55 AM

As Wild Dog said, you are just overthinking it. These cheap CG clones don't need or require anything high tech or fancy. They run them with what is often called Universal Oil, aka generic motor oil or diesel oil. As long as it either has the JASO MA1 or MA2 certification (Rotella T4 or T6) or is just a cheap basic oil with no friction modifiers (Wal Mart brand oil has been run by a few on here with success), then it will be more than adequate for a CG engine, which was designed to survive 3rd world countries and almost no real maintenance. The friction modifiers are the real issue. Additives like Molybdenum compounds (the most common) will cause the clutch friction to reduce to the point that it can slip while engaged and in gear. As long as the oil you use is clean and doesn't contain those modifiers, such as the basic diesel oils you mentioned, then it should be fine. Most generic diesel oils don't tend to contain friction modifiers.

If you plan on running your bike in colder climates, ie getting around freezing temps, then definitely drop down to even a 5 or 10 winter weight (5w or 10w). I usually run 15w40 synthetic in my bike pretty much from March to November, with the low temps in the low 40's without issue, but I also give my bike several minutes to warm up. I will sometimes switch to a 5w-40 during the colder parts of the year so the oil flows better when warming up.

Oldenslow · 12-03-2020, 08:43 AM

Put 10W40 in it -- it'll never know the difference. Heck, some fellows online did a video running honey as an oil substitute in their Chinese Honda-clone motor for quite a while, with no disaster.

ChillRider · 12-03-2020, 08:48 AM

Yeah, but since mine is a Yamaha-clone motor, it may take offense to the honey.

Wild Dog · 12-03-2020, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChillRider

Yeah, but since mine is a Yamaha-clone motor, it may take offense to the honey.

Still a basic motor it may be OHC instead of OHV. I have the same engine but made by Yamaha and the manual do have the weather conditions but if you ask Yamaha Argentina their official reply is that we should use either 10w40 semi synth Yamalube or 20w50 mineral yamalube.
For my region of the country i use 20w50 mineral, i change it every 2000 km like the manual says.

Down the road is more important that you change the oil often and make sure that there is no metal shaving cloging the small filter. Because if that small filter is clogged you will have to remove the right cover

TxTaoRider · 12-03-2020, 09:18 AM

I'm going to say something pretty controversial... Which happens in an oil these...
Several years ago I bought an auto clutch for my quad (525 ktm motor) from Slavens Ktm. They use springs and weights and the stock clutch fibers and basket. He said he uses Castrol 10w40 automotive oil in his bikes and suggested I did too. I have used regular oil on the spot in the quad but usually Rotella or delvek are my go-to.
I push that quad hard, it's bored and stroked, cammed, ported head, etc... And have only replaced the plates 2 times in over 10 years (and the 2nd time was preventive).
What I'm saying is I'm not sure that automotive oil makes much, if any, difference on clutch fibers. As I said I have used both, and usually use Rotella...but I've also used Mobil 1 that was marked down, and there wasn't any extra slippage or wear.

Just saying...

12-02-2020, 03:51 AM	#1
ChillRider Join Date: Jun 2020 Location: A small country with a funny name Posts: 164	15W40 4T engine oil -unobtainium? Sooo.... an oil thread Jokes apart, the service manual for my ZongShen Sierra/ZS200-GY2/LZX200-GY2 (depending on your market), despite using a close copy of the Yamaha TW200 engine, recommends just "15W40 SF" oil. That's it. No outside temp ranges, no driving conditions differentiation, no JASO MA/MA2 certification, nothing. The thing is, that weight of oil is nearly impossible to come by in "motorcycle grade" 4T formulations (with at least a JASO MA endorsement), at least in Greece. The most common commercially available grades seem to be: 10W40 (an OK substitute in colder months, usually semi-synthetic) 20W50 (OK for spring-summer, but struggling on cold starts, and usually oil of that weight is also 100% mineral, so not the best for durability, no matter how thick it is) 15W50 (a good compromise between better cold start performance and top-range protection, and oils of that grade are almost always at least semi-synthetic). There is also more specialty/expensive stuff like 20W40, 10W50, 5W30 or even 10W60 for enduro racing etc., if someone really needs it, but no 15W40, nope. The most commonly available oils in a 15W-40 weight seem to be very basic engine mineral oils, often marketed as "Heavy Duty Diesel" or "Fleet/Multipurpose" or even "Agricultural" use, and often only available at quite low API grades, like API SG grades or even lower. API SF/CD grades are not uncommon, and of course no claims of suitability for wet clutch applications. And nope, we don't get Shell Rotella with its fancy JASO MA endorsement here Can one really pour in such a basic mineral oil in a motorcycle crankcase and expect it to perform? I've heard stories of delivery guys just using the cheapest 20W50 motor oil they can find for their (4-stroke, wet-clutch) underbone motorcycles (Honda Cub, Yamaha Townmate and similar, with a semi-auto transmission), not even caring about whether it's suitable for wet clutch applications, but those motorcycles are obviously designed for that kind of abuse, and their wet clutch is not actuated in the same manner as a fully manual motorcycle. I guess that such basic/general purpose oils won't have much in the way of specialized friction modifiers/energy conserving additives, exactly in order to be compatible with a broad array of engines (e.g. some "Agricultural" oils claim suitability with wet clutch or even hydraulic applications), but are theyt really safe to use without a JASO MA/MA2 endorsement? Or are those chinabikes built to cope with even the lowest grade of commercially available oil, if necessary?
	0

12-02-2020, 09:53 AM	#4
alex_in_az Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Goodyear, Arizona Posts: 404	I run 10W40 4T without issue and I would bet my high temps are at least as high as yours __________________ 2020 Tao TBR7 9.3:1 PnP head CRF230F exhaust 4 degree advance key 290 degree cam Nibbi PE30 and cone filter Front fork brace
	1

12-02-2020, 07:15 PM	#8
Plump Kibbles Join Date: Sep 2020 Location: Virginia Posts: 233	My book does state some weight / weather recommendations.. but I asked the guys at my local NAPA - everyone there that rides all year said 10W-40.. So that's what I'm sticking with; non-synthetic. . . There's no one ultimate, the one, super uber duper awesome, does it all - oil.. I would suggest something non-synthetic for the wet clutch as was suggested to me. Also additive free.. Good luck! __________________ \|2020 X-Pro Titan DLX\| <-- FOR SALE!!
	0

12-02-2020, 08:08 PM	#9
grumpyunk Join Date: Jul 2018 Location: nw of atlanta Posts: 169	I think, no basis other than being around for a long time, that you would be fine with just about any that do NOT have a 'friction modifier' additive. The listed viscosities available should be adequate for the appropriate temperature range given. My Honda CB350 recommended plain old 10W30, nothing special except the Sx, spark ignition API rating. If you have flat tappets or cam followers, I would go with the Rotella/Delvac/brain-fade for RPM DELO - came to me. Any of the CD rated have a bit more ZDDP as I understand, which helps the flat tappet/cam follower handle the sliding friction better, and extends their life. I think. I have two or three varieties of diesel rated. I am currently using the WalMart Super Tech 10W40 diesel rated lube. No synthetic, just plain old natural. The CB350 didn't care one way or another, and depending on your engine design, OHC or OHV, they should be good. The CG250 is a simple design that doesn't seem to care from all I have read. Not sure what engine is being discussed. tom, __________________ vertical and above ground - my daily goal
	2

12-03-2020, 01:55 AM	#11
Megadan Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Omaha, NE Posts: 7,902	As Wild Dog said, you are just overthinking it. These cheap CG clones don't need or require anything high tech or fancy. They run them with what is often called Universal Oil, aka generic motor oil or diesel oil. As long as it either has the JASO MA1 or MA2 certification (Rotella T4 or T6) or is just a cheap basic oil with no friction modifiers (Wal Mart brand oil has been run by a few on here with success), then it will be more than adequate for a CG engine, which was designed to survive 3rd world countries and almost no real maintenance. The friction modifiers are the real issue. Additives like Molybdenum compounds (the most common) will cause the clutch friction to reduce to the point that it can slip while engaged and in gear. As long as the oil you use is clean and doesn't contain those modifiers, such as the basic diesel oils you mentioned, then it should be fine. Most generic diesel oils don't tend to contain friction modifiers. If you plan on running your bike in colder climates, ie getting around freezing temps, then definitely drop down to even a 5 or 10 winter weight (5w or 10w). I usually run 15w40 synthetic in my bike pretty much from March to November, with the low temps in the low 40's without issue, but I also give my bike several minutes to warm up. I will sometimes switch to a 5w-40 during the colder parts of the year so the oil flows better when warming up. __________________ 2018 Hawk 250 - Full Mod list here. http://www.chinariders.net/showpost....62&postcount=1 Hawk Information and Resource guide: http://www.chinariders.net/showthread.php?t=20331 2010 VFR1200F - http://chinariders.net/showthread.php?t=20708
	2

12-02-2020, 08:06 AM	#2
Wild Dog Join Date: Dec 2016 Location: Argentina Posts: 756	You are overthinking it, if we take Greece weateher in mind, the motorcycle can run any motorcycle oil from 10w40 to 20w50. Just check any Yamaha manual with the same engine you have. The chinese manual are crappy at best and they will just list one type of oil, instead of giving you the chart of oils to use according to the weather you have. About the 20w40, that a lot of people like to bash. These engines are really basic engines from mid 80s to early 90s, they were almost made in mind to use 20w40. In fact Yamaha stills sells 20w40 under the yamalube brand. Down the road, changing oil often is more important than using a ultra plus special one of a kind oil.
	0

12-02-2020, 08:36 AM	#3
ChillRider Join Date: Jun 2020 Location: A small country with a funny name Posts: 164	Well, I just wanted to use the closest oil to the "recommended" specs, and it seems that 15W40 isn't even made in a motorcycle-specific grade, at least by none of the major/easily found brands. Unless the hint in the manual was that the engine is so ghetto that it could chug even the most basic heavy diesel truck oil... Even locally made brands of motor oil that do have motorcycle-specific oils in their lineup, usually only offer 10W40 and 20W50, and maaaaaybe 15W50 if they want to be fancy. 15W40, it seems, is reserved only for HD Diesel or multifleet/basic car oil. In practice, in the one year + 3 months I have owned the bike, I have filled it with either 20W50 (after the recommendation of my mechanic) or 15W50 (after finding 20W50 a bit too thick during cold starts once the outside temperatures start lowering). I'm gonna try 10W40 in the next oil change, due soon. Then again I do quite frequent oil changes (500-600 km for mineral, 700-800 km for semi synthetic) so I can adapt easily to changing conditions ;-)
	1

12-02-2020, 11:01 AM	#6
ChillRider Join Date: Jun 2020 Location: A small country with a funny name Posts: 164	FWIW, 15W40 SF seems to be the lowest/oldest widely available grade of oil you can buy today -every noname petroleum products distributor and gas station will have an offering in that weight and grade, so I don't know if that's why they chose this specific type in the manual.
	0

12-03-2020, 08:43 AM	#12
Oldenslow Join Date: Mar 2020 Posts: 153	Put 10W40 in it -- it'll never know the difference. Heck, some fellows online did a video running honey as an oil substitute in their Chinese Honda-clone motor for quite a while, with no disaster.
	1

12-03-2020, 08:48 AM	#13
ChillRider Join Date: Jun 2020 Location: A small country with a funny name Posts: 164	Yeah, but since mine is a Yamaha-clone motor, it may take offense to the honey.
	1

12-03-2020, 09:18 AM	#15
TxTaoRider Join Date: Oct 2020 Location: Flower Mound Texas Posts: 904	I'm going to say something pretty controversial... Which happens in an oil these... Several years ago I bought an auto clutch for my quad (525 ktm motor) from Slavens Ktm. They use springs and weights and the stock clutch fibers and basket. He said he uses Castrol 10w40 automotive oil in his bikes and suggested I did too. I have used regular oil on the spot in the quad but usually Rotella or delvek are my go-to. I push that quad hard, it's bored and stroked, cammed, ported head, etc... And have only replaced the plates 2 times in over 10 years (and the 2nd time was preventive). What I'm saying is I'm not sure that automotive oil makes much, if any, difference on clutch fibers. As I said I have used both, and usually use Rotella...but I've also used Mobil 1 that was marked down, and there wasn't any extra slippage or wear. Just saying... __________________ 2021 Tao Tbr7 - "Lucille" Mods so far- Brozz swingarm, 21" front rim (Bridgestone Tw302 rear/Dunlop D606 front tires), Digital gauge cluster, pz30b pumper carb, after market hand guards, aftermarket brake and clutch levers, round fold away mirrors, Fly handlebars shortened slightly, 13t front sprocket 2009 Q-link Legacy 250 1982 Suzuki GS1100ES - "Jolene"
	0