300cc Kit

[ChondaChondaChonda]

Originally Posted by 2LZ

The litmus test will be running against Mrs. 2LZ bone stock RX3. The bikes run neck and neck every time we've raced each other, even with my pipe. The choices will probably be:

1 - Runs pretty much the same.
2 - I have a little more bottom end, but isn't any "faster".
3 - A slight improvement across the entire power band.
3 - It's a freaking rocket ship that spanked a GSXR on my way to the bar and I didn't even have to use my spurs.

If I can get #2, I'll be a happy camper.
Hell, at this point I just want to get it installed.

You can spank the GSXR!!




If the route is off-road and filled with whoops and rocky climbs...maybe.

[BlackBike]

Originally Posted by 2LZ

I'm not sure if it bounces to open loop and goes straight mapping at full throttle or not. I was hoping it would stay in closed loop and let the sensors do their jobs.

I'd love to go carb kit on it. Then it wouldn't be locked into a certain mapping.

Didnt CHONDA basically prove the conversion will be sound for the rx3 as well with his mad scientist skills on his zong engine?

[ChondaChondaChonda]

I did quite a bit of tuning on Delphi systems a few years back.

After it warms up-t he bike will usually go into "Closed loop" at a moderate throttle opening and RPM- this is where it looks at the O2 sensor and decides if it needs to add or subtract fuel. It makes the adjustments (quite quickly).

The way it does it is by changing a multiplier - this "new adjustment" value is then applied across the *ENTIRE* map, so now even when you whack the throttle and leave the "Closed Loop" area your fueling has been adjusted- thus it is running as it should in open loop.

The problem with EPA certified tunes is that they usually have a nice dead spot where you don't want it. Most tuners take this out and the owner is much happier.

The LXR EFI is off-road only so it has no dead spot- it's tuned on the rich side; especially at high throttle openings.

So *theoretically* it should work fine on the RX3, but it may have more room for improvement at the hands of a good tuner. IMHO it's not enough extra juice to spend much time or $$ on.

[2LZ]

Update!...well, not really. I got the rings on the piston last night then crashed....but hey, it is progress!

[Juanro]

While I'm waiting for my kit to arrive (China is a long way from Argentina...), I'm doing a bit of research on two issues.
First, there's the question about the different HP quoted on different bikes with this engine; the (in)famous debate about wether is 25 or 30hp is still aching. Kayo K6/Pitster Pro LXR250 both says 30hp and users of these machines tend to confirm that, at least by seats of the pants dyno and comparing with their other bikes. The difference is attributed to EFI mapping, exhaust, and camshaft lobes. (More on EFI later). I checked all I could but camshaft codes (I mean, Zongshen parts codes) from CSC, Pitster, and other sources, all match: it's 15100-ME30-0000. Also, I couldn't find different camshafts in Aliexpress and the like. This was driven by the idea of changing my own camshaft for the hotter one, but so far, to no avail.
So I guess the question is if anyone has more information on this subject.
The second one is to convert my bike to EFI, in Argentina it's sold with carburetor and albeit properly tuned it works just fine, it's a headache when heading for the mountains. Up to about 3000m over sea level is fine; up from there, no surprise, it begins to miss and cough badly, and it would require a re jetting. But if you're traveling around north of Argentina, Bolivia, Chile, Peru, with constant altitude changed, is no fun. So EFI would be. I'm thinking about getting the complete Kayo EFI system, it's 1380 yuans on taobao and it seems complete (ECU, all sensor, fuel pump). The only remaining question is if the Kayo/Pitster flywheel is the same as the carburated version, with just one tooth to trigger the spark, instead of the multi toothed Delphi EFI one. Again, if anyone can shed some light on this, it will be welcome.
When all the parts arrive I will post pictures and updates.
Regards,

Juanro

[NzBrakelathes]

Originally Posted by Juanro

While I'm waiting for my kit to arrive (China is a long way from Argentina...), I'm doing a bit of research on two issues.
First, there's the question about the different HP quoted on different bikes with this engine; the (in)famous debate about wether is 25 or 30hp is still aching. Kayo K6/Pitster Pro LXR250 both says 30hp and users of these machines tend to confirm that, at least by seats of the pants dyno and comparing with their other bikes. The difference is attributed to EFI mapping, exhaust, and camshaft lobes. (More on EFI later). I checked all I could but camshaft codes (I mean, Zongshen parts codes) from CSC, Pitster, and other sources, all match: it's 15100-ME30-0000. Also, I couldn't find different camshafts in Aliexpress and the like. This was driven by the idea of changing my own camshaft for the hotter one, but so far, to no avail.
So I guess the question is if anyone has more information on this subject.
The second one is to convert my bike to EFI, in Argentina it's sold with carburetor and albeit properly tuned it works just fine, it's a headache when heading for the mountains. Up to about 3000m over sea level is fine; up from there, no surprise, it begins to miss and cough badly, and it would require a re jetting. But if you're traveling around north of Argentina, Bolivia, Chile, Peru, with constant altitude changed, is no fun. So EFI would be. I'm thinking about getting the complete Kayo EFI system, it's 1380 yuans on taobao and it seems complete (ECU, all sensor, fuel pump). The only remaining question is if the Kayo/Pitster flywheel is the same as the carburated version, with just one tooth to trigger the spark, instead of the multi toothed Delphi EFI one. Again, if anyone can shed some light on this, it will be welcome.
When all the parts arrive I will post pictures and updates.
Regards,

Juanro

Actually there is a lot more different:
Fuel Tank lines manifold etc and complete wiring loom
Stator should be upgraded to the 300/350 watts and flywheel has more bumps on it, regulator needs to match the power output of stator etc.
Be interesting if the EXPORT Kayo (Chinese models do not have EFI are tuned differently etc and maybe just maybe the Cam shaft (I will try find out)
be intresting to know the injector part number from Kayo (Delphi number not Kayo or the brands part number)
Also what duration is the injector open at idle on the Kayo (Zongshen was 3.5Ms and I am told 2.5-3.0 should be common on 1 cyl 250) Maybe some of you can test?
The other thing I maybe noticed on the RZ3 (Same as NC30 I kinda felt it had a bit better power then my RX3's I had - I know the ECu part number from Zongshen is not the same yet it all looks to have the same sensors, I mean MAP sensor is the same (Generic), O2 must be as that's generic enough but injector part number I am not sure about - I might try find out.

[ChondaChondaChonda]

Juanro- I believe the Kayo system will work with your flywheel. I'd be happy to pull the cover off and snap a picture if you need confirmation. My bike is the Kayo / Rojo system on the LXR 250.



I know the flywheel is different than the Delphi equipped bikes.

[Juanro]

Thanks Chonda I'll try first to confirm using part numbers.

This is the taobao link for the EFI system (both parts & complete system)
https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=546161523938

[NzBrakelathes]

Originally Posted by Juanro

Thanks Chonda I'll try first to confirm using part numbers.

This is the taobao link for the EFI system (both parts & complete system)
https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=546161523938

Ohhhh tha is not Delphi! That is another thing! But did i see some controller with it? A tuner??
This uses a DC CDI - much simpler looking set up etc, It would be interesting to see the tank on the Kayo and pump?

[Juanro]

That's right, Kayo uses an external vacuum activated low pressure pump (or petcock, not sure), and then the electric, again external, fuel pump. Also ECU is self contained in the throttle body. And lastly it seems the system is tunneable, so a much nicer design to adapt in my opinion. (Not just to the carb version but to any bike around 250cc)

[Juanro]

Here's a better picture of the full system. Taken from somewhere in ADVrider.

[Juanro]

Parts # for the mag. flywheel
First one is Pitster, 2nd local brand "Corven" (carburetor version), last one Thai Rx3 (Delphi EFI). Seems to match.


P061323 82130-ME30-0000 ROTOR ASSY,MAGNETO
14002-TT-00-AA-04 82130-ME30-0000 ROTOR COMPLETO NC250磁电机转子组合(12极) ROTOR ASSY,MAGNETO
82130-MH06-0000 NC250电喷磁电机转子组合(12极) ROTOR ASSY,MAGNETO

[ChondaChondaChonda]

Originally Posted by Juanro

Thanks Chonda I'll try first to confirm using part numbers.

This is the taobao link for the EFI system (both parts & complete system)
https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=546161523938

Yes. That is the one I have - but they didn't come with the regulator back then. Not sure why they added it.



I took some pictures of it as I took it apart and posted them in this thread:



http://www.chinariders.net/showthread.php?t=20733

[Juanro]

Originally Posted by ChondaChondaChonda

but they didn't come with the regulator back then. Not sure why they added it.

dunno but it would be nice to have a spare regulator anyway

[2LZ]

Originally Posted by Juanro

First, there's the question about the different HP quoted on different bikes with this engine; the (in)famous debate about wether is 25 or 30hp is still aching. Kayo K6/Pitster Pro LXR250 both says 30hp and users of these machines tend to confirm that, at least by seats of the pants dyno and comparing with their other bikes. T
Juanro

Those of us who reside the CA just automatically accept the fact that everywhere else the same unit will have more power. There's little doubt in my mind that the mapping on the RX3 has been turned down to pass CARB regs, being that it's a 50 state bike. With carbs, it was an easy work around. With EFI, not so much.