Direct Ignition Coil

[Megadan]

Originally Posted by JerryHawk250

There is a programmable CDI out there. That's another project somewhere down the road. Can't do all the mods at once. I need to spread them out to keep me occupied on the rainy weekends.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Digi...234642130.html

Maybe next year lol. Free mods are the best mods

[Ariel Red Hunter]

Originally Posted by Megadan

The stock cdi timing curve already has a gradual timing advance from 1500 to 4000rpm. All I am looking to dois advance the pickup a couple of degrees to shift the whole curve up.

I understood that the built in timing advance was only capable of a very small amount of advance. I have been given to understand that initial timing is already set at 14 degrees before TDC. I would think that any more static advance would create starter motor problems. One thing I can think of to get around that problem would be to let the electric starter bring the engine up to starting speed with the ignition off at the red switch. Then when the engine reaches maximum rpm on the starter, push the other red switch. If that works, but is awkward, put a push button magneto grounding switch on the left handlebar....ARH

[Megadan]

Originally Posted by Ariel Red Hunter

I understood that the built in timing advance was only capable of a very small amount of advance. I have been given to understand that initial timing is already set at 14 degrees before TDC. I would think that any more static advance would create starter motor problems. One thing I can think of to get around that problem would be to let the electric starter bring the engine up to starting speed with the ignition off at the red switch. Then when the engine reaches maximum rpm on the starter, push the other red switch. If that works, but is awkward, put a push button magneto grounding switch on the left handlebar....ARH

We aren't talking enough advance to really put any actual strain on the starter. If the idle/start ignition timing is 14*BTDC, with the peak advance being 26*BTDC(est)@4000rpm, and I manage to advance the pickup say 2 degrees, then we are talking 16*BTDC starting/idle with 28* at 4000rpm.

Considering most of the "performance" CDI units on the market have zero idle/start ignition retard built into them, they have the engines kicking over with 26 degrees of advance just to start, which is why they are such a pain in the rear end to cold start.

My modified head on the other hand... that will definitely make my starter cry a little bit. I calculated out my compression at 10.3:1 That might do a number on it lol.

The pickup advance modification is more of just an experiment to see if I can coax a little more pep in it's step in the middle of the power curve. Since I only plan to slot the bracket holes in the direction needed to advance it, I can always take it back to the factory position if needed. I do plan on eventually tossing on a programmable CDI though, as full control over the whole curve would be wonderful.

[Cravin01]

That's why I love this forum, about the time I thought It thru a couple of of you guys get on here and blow me out of the water with the depth you guys have taken it and the overall knowledge you hold.

I like most of us, I do a slightly under the surface check, say "it should work!" and then hook it up and see if it explodes.

And sometimes it does!

[Ariel Red Hunter]

Originally Posted by Megadan

We aren't talking enough advance to really put any actual strain on the starter. If the idle/start ignition timing is 14*BTDC, with the peak advance being 26*BTDC(est)@4000rpm, and I manage to advance the pickup say 2 degrees, then we are talking 16*BTDC starting/idle with 28* at 4000rpm.

Considering most of the "performance" CDI units on the market have zero idle/start ignition retard built into them, they have the engines kicking over with 26 degrees of advance just to start, which is why they are such a pain in the rear end to cold start.

My modified head on the other hand... that will definitely make my starter cry a little bit. I calculated out my compression at 10.3:1 That might do a number on it lol.

The pickup advance modification is more of just an experiment to see if I can coax a little more pep in it's step in the middle of the power curve. Since I only plan to slot the bracket holes in the direction needed to advance it, I can always take it back to the factory position if needed. I do plan on eventually tossing on a programmable CDI though, as full control over the whole curve would be wonderful.

On the engines I have had experience with, 28 degrees of advance is what you need at 2000-2500rpm, on its way up the rpm scale. 37-40 degrees maximum advance is where you want to end up. You either find the maximum advance on a dyno, or top speed runs in high gear. To amuse the younger set, I had an airplane with a Franklin 6 engine. It had Edison-Splitdorf magnetos that had an impulse coupling that delayed the magneto 35 degrees at start up until 7-800 rpm. Then the flyball governer kicked out the impulse coupling, and ignition timing went directly to 37 degrees advance. Understand that it delayed the entire magneto, not just the breaker points. Delaying ignition the easy way (points) causes hard starting because a magneto's EMF pulsates in varius areas around the core. The breaker points are timed to the period of maximum electronic pulse in order to get a very hot spark. That's probally more than you want to know about magnetos, even though the Hawk has one...ARH

[Megadan]

The ignition advance on these engines is extremely conservative.

I did pull the stator cover today to look into advancing the pickup, but decided to revisit it once my VFR is back on the road.

Since the stator and pickup are bolted to the cover itself, the mount for the pickup is essentially dowel pinned in place, with the dowels themselves being a part of the pickup bracket. It makes sense that it was done this way since there is no way to set or adjust the gap.

I have a plan in my head for how to achieve it, but I want to wait until I can afford to have my Hawk down just in case I break the pickup lol. There is a lot of room for the pickup to slide on the bracket, so if the bracket can be freed up from the pickup housing, it can be slid over. There is a lot of room to work with in that regard.

Or I may just drop the coin on the programmable CDI by that point.

[JerryHawk250]

I got the coil in Saturday but not the connector. Should be here today. First off it is too long and will hit the tank but I think I can cut the boot and spring down enough so that it will clear the tank. So I guess that will be next weekends project.

Dan, I'll wait and see how your experiment goes. I think the programmable CDI would probably be the best way to go but if you can gain a little extra power with a Free mod, I'm all in for that. lol

[JerryHawk250]

Look what I got accomplished today. I had to cut the boot and spring. I removed the old coil and wire. I made a bracket from one of the clamps that came with the oil cooler. I soldered the wire and heat shrink the connection. Turned on the ignition and she fired right up. First thing I noticed is it idled smoother on a cold start. I assuming it's putting out a hotter spark. I haven't taken it out on the road yet. I'll do that this afternoon if the rain holds off.

[ChondaChondaChonda]

Awesomeness Jerry!

[JerryHawk250]

Originally Posted by ChondaChondaChonda

Awesomeness Jerry!

Thanks, I just took it out for a test run. Definitely feels stronger. I think my old coil was on its way out. Last two rides I made the engine cut out briefly and only did it once each time. It did this while just cruising and not under a load. had me puzzled.

[franque]

I might try to support it from underneath, if what they say about breaking plugs is true... I'd think one cannot give it too much support.

[Megadan]

Originally Posted by JerryHawk250

Thanks, I just took it out for a test run. Definitely feels stronger. I think my old coil was on its way out. Last two rides I made the engine cut out briefly and only did it once each time. It did this while just cruising and not under a load. had me puzzled.

I think the stock coils are prone to heat soak issues as well. Plus they aren't the strongest spark producers to begin with.

One of the reasons I bought that 3 wire coil - which I just got in the mail today - is because I think my coil is starting to go out too. Cold starts are starting to get harder, and like you mentioned, it doesn't run as smooth as it used to during those cold starts. I know it isn't the plug lol.

[JerryHawk250]

Originally Posted by franque

I might try to support it from underneath, if what they say about breaking plugs is true... I'd think one cannot give it too much support.

The brackets pretty stout. It's not going anywhere .

[JerryHawk250]

Originally Posted by Megadan

I think the stock coils are prone to heat soak issues as well. Plus they aren't the strongest spark producers to begin with.

One of the reasons I bought that 3 wire coil - which I just got in the mail today - is because I think my coil is starting to go out too. Cold starts are starting to get harder, and like you mentioned, it doesn't run as smooth as it used to during those cold starts. I know it isn't the plug lol.

Just got back from a 53 mile ride. The new coil is definitely an improvement over the old one.

[goat67]

Originally Posted by JerryHawk250

Just ordered the coil and connector for under $19 from amazon. Should have it for Saturday. I plan on the ignition pickup advance experiment myself.

Got a link for the connector? You posted a link for the coil

Thanks