round #1 (i won) - Page 2

anthonyfa18 · 05-09-2010, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waynev

If the stock carb is a 27mm and the GIO upgrade mikuni is a 30mm i can't see how a 24mm would improve the performance at all, it would actully detune the engine from stock, i guess the electric choke might help in the cold but a properly jetted 30mm carb starts just fine in the cold. Looking around at other forums i have seen that most GY6 carb users looking for more performance actually remove the electric choke as it sometimes sticks on which hurts performance even more.

my gy6 carb is 26mm, and i also explain this in my gy6 topic, but i will repeat it for u again,

the reason you get more performance with the gy6 carb is because of the remove of the gio intake manifold. the oem intake manifold is very restricted because the air/fuel must go up and then in to the engine. with the gy6 carb it is direct so the is no restricted the air/fuel is sent straight to the motor. so this is why a 26mm gy6 carb give you more power on your 200cc. look at my mod list and i did not even rejet my carb yet :P :P and my spark plug is just right.

waynev · 05-09-2010, 03:12 PM

Sorry, i have to disagree that a 26mm carb will outperform a 30mm carb and i'm not sure about your intake manifold theory, you are using a rad hose which has a smooth surface inside, a smooth surfaced intake manifold is the worst thing you can use, a course surface, like the one inside the OEM manifold does a much better job at atomizing the fuel and some turbulance is also better than none to also help with atomization so i'm ok with the slight bends. I had to up the main jet 4 sizes and the pilot 2 sizes and the clip is on the 2nd richest setting on my Mikuni PZ30 carb so this only tells me that the 30mm is moving more air which in turn calls for more fuel which in turn means more power, telling us you didn't have to rejet only leads me to believe that you are moving less air, hence the need for less fuel, assuming your carb came jetted for the 150cc it was designed for.

Weldangrind · 05-09-2010, 03:41 PM

The right honourable Reveeen says that there is no such thing as too small a carb (still not sure what that means). I'm guessing that he's saying that if you were to do the math on the displacement, you'd find that a 200cc engine will be easily fed by a GY6 carb. He also says that vacuum style carbs (like the GY6) are more forgiving.

Maybe he'll chime in.

waynev · 05-09-2010, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weldangrind

The right honourable Reveeen says that there is no such thing as too small a carb (still not sure what that means). I'm guessing that he's saying that if you were to do the math on the displacement, you'd find that a 200cc engine will be easily fed by a GY6 carb. He also says that vacuum style carbs (like the GY6) are more forgiving.

Maybe he'll chime in.

Yeah, sorry for being so harsh, i'm sure the GY6 carb will work fine on our beast engines, most honda's in the 200cc range run 26-30mm carbs, i think anthony is like me and is also looking for the best performance out of our beasts, i think he is wanting more based on his thread about the big bore kit, all i can say is i got my beast to the point where 2nd gear wheelies are now a pc of cake and while crawling around and punching the hammer in 3rd gear it will even pull wheelies now.
So i guess my only question to anthony is "can you pull wheelies in 3rd gear" ?, if not you may want to try the 30mm carb, and yes i'll make sure i get some vids next time i'm out riding.
Once again sorry if i came across harsh, weather been crap here, i need to get out for a ride soon.

anthonyfa18 · 05-09-2010, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waynev

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weldangrind

The right honourable Reveeen says that there is no such thing as too small a carb (still not sure what that means). I'm guessing that he's saying that if you were to do the math on the displacement, you'd find that a 200cc engine will be easily fed by a GY6 carb. He also says that vacuum style carbs (like the GY6) are more forgiving.

Maybe he'll chime in.

Yeah, sorry for being so harsh, i'm sure the GY6 carb will work fine on our beast engines, most honda's in the 200cc range run 26-30mm carbs, i think anthony is like me and is also looking for the best performance out of our beasts, i think he is wanting more based on his thread about the big bore kit, all i can say is i got my beast to the point where 2nd gear wheelies are now a pc of cake and while crawling around and punching the hammer in 3rd gear it will even pull wheelies now.
So i guess my only question to anthony is "can you pull wheelies in 3rd gear" ?, if not you may want to try the 30mm carb, and yes i'll make sure i get some vids next time i'm out riding.
Once again sorry if i came across harsh, weather been crap here, i need to get out for a ride soon.

i am not into wheelies sorry all i know is i max out my gears very fast, and i did not go on the trail yet to max out my speed maybe one day we shoud meet up and do a race best out of 3 lol, i know my beast is fast and i know my intake manifold theory is right :wink:

Quote:

Originally Posted by waynev

i'm not sure about your intake manifold theory, you are using a rad hose which has a smooth surface inside, a smooth surfaced intake manifold is the worst thing you can use, a course surface, like the one inside the OEM manifold does a much better job at atomizing the fuel and some turbulance is also better than none to also help with atomization so i'm ok with the slight bends.

what are u say, smooth surface inside an intake manifold is the best thing for flow, when we build performance engines for cars we all ways polish the intake for the maximum flow

Weldangrind · 05-10-2010, 01:52 AM

There is logic in porting and polishing the intake, but don't go too far. The air / fuel mixture needs some texture to properly atomize.

Go ahead and polish the exhaust port like a mirror.

waynev · 05-10-2010, 07:55 AM

Yes, a polished/smooth intake tube is best for AIR flow, not for fuel/air flow.

anthonyfa18 · 05-10-2010, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waynev

Yes, a polished/smooth intake tube is best for AIR flow, not for fuel/air flow.

show me proof :?

Weldangrind · 05-10-2010, 08:39 PM

I've got dozens of Hot Rod magazines, but I never got around to cataloging the tech articles. :?

The concensus in the tech stuff I've read is that in a wet flow application (carb or TBI), you need some texture to prevent fuel puddling. The air and fuel mixture needs to tumble and atomize properly.

In a dry flow application (tuned port, TPI, etc), the intake runners only flow air, so no fuel atomization is needed. As a result, a perfectly smooth surface is the most efficient in dry flow.

I have no proof. I only know what I've read.

waynev · 05-10-2010, 09:25 PM

Well you can start by going to any performance intake manifold maunfacturer and ask them why none of their performance manifolds are polished inside, there's a reason you know, then there's articles like this ( bottom of the page )

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Arti...orsepower.aspx

The courser surface actually aids the flow of the air/fuel mixture and will stop the fuel from puddling on the smooth sides of a polished intake tube, now on the exhaust, polished to a mirror surface will increase the flow, and on todays direct fuel injected engines, polish away, but when fuel and air are moving thru the tube a course surface will outperform a mirror/smooth surface.

I kinda learned this theory the opposite way, i had an RC plane on floats, when the water was calm i could barely takeoff, it turned out i had very smooth floats and the smooth surface was actually sticking them to the water, after a 100 grit sanding the plane would takeoff no problem.

anthonyfa18 · 05-10-2010, 10:17 PM

that is very good info but i went into my book and my info is right. you have your way and i have mine. my ways works in cars (honda and hyundai) and now it is showing in my atv. my atv run god look at my videos,
so let just settle it, when is the race :evil:

waynev · 05-10-2010, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anthonyfa18

that is very good info but i went into my book and my info is right. you have your way and i have mine. my ways works in cars (honda and hyundai) and now it is showing in my atv. my atv run god look at my videos,
so let just settle it, when is the race :evil:

Hey, i'm not saying your ATV doesn't run great, and i totally agree that "your" way works on cars, but saying your way works on cars totally agrees with what i'm saying, since the fuel injectors spray fuel right into the cylinder your intake manifold is only moving air, so yes polishing your cars intake manifold is going to net your more power.

AceCombat · 05-11-2010, 10:34 AM

Hate for this to be my first post but here goes.

Anthony I hate to break it to you but you are wrong.
Porting and polishing are 2 separate things when you read about it in your mags. Porting is actually making the passages bigger not smoother and polishing is well polishing the exhaust.

You want the passage that carries the air/fuel mixture to be rough. Smooth will decrease the amount of fuel and lean out your engine.
Rough allows for proper atomization of the mixture.

This will result in a more complete burn resulting in more power.

You can create more power by getting more fuel and more air but you have to keep the mixture right.
So for ever increase in fuel you must allow more air and vice versa.

You can smooth the intake after the air filter and take away any bends in the exhaust but anywhere fuel and air are going to be must not have a smooth surface.

I am a mechanic of 18 years and i have built many race engines and small race engines.
My first real build was a 100cc shifter go kart at school. Top speed was 90kmh Before we did the porting and polishing after 105kmh.

Oh yeah by the way I am the owner of a Gio Mini beast 110cc I picked up for 125.00 off a guy who couldn't get it running turned out to be a starter switch and 20 mins of my time.
We have it hitting about 70kmh right now but soon to be doing some top secret mods. Will post pics soon.

AceCombat · 05-11-2010, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waynev

Quote:

Originally Posted by anthonyfa18

that is very good info but i went into my book and my info is right. you have your way and i have mine. my ways works in cars (honda and hyundai) and now it is showing in my atv. my atv run god look at my videos,
so let just settle it, when is the race :evil:

Hey, i'm not saying your ATV doesn't run great, and i totally agree that "your" way works on cars, but saying your way works on cars totally agrees with what i'm saying, since the fuel injectors spray fuel right into the cylinder your intake manifold is only moving air, so yes polishing your cars intake manifold is going to net your more power.

That's funny I recognized that intake the second i saw it. I got one sitting in my garage right now with the head on it waiting for a new head gasket. sister in Laws car. 1996 civic Si.

Weldangrind · 05-11-2010, 11:13 AM

Welcome Ace! Please take the time to post in the Introduce Yourself section.

05-09-2010, 03:41 PM	#18
Weldangrind Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Sardis, BC, Canada Posts: 25,977	The right honourable Reveeen says that there is no such thing as too small a carb (still not sure what that means). I'm guessing that he's saying that if you were to do the math on the displacement, you'd find that a 200cc engine will be easily fed by a GY6 carb. He also says that vacuum style carbs (like the GY6) are more forgiving. Maybe he'll chime in. __________________ Weldangrind "I figure I'm well-prepared for coping with a bike that comes from the factory with unresolved issues and that rewards the self-reliant owner." - Buccaneer
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05-10-2010, 01:52 AM	#21
Weldangrind Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Sardis, BC, Canada Posts: 25,977	There is logic in porting and polishing the intake, but don't go too far. The air / fuel mixture needs some texture to properly atomize. Go ahead and polish the exhaust port like a mirror. __________________ Weldangrind "I figure I'm well-prepared for coping with a bike that comes from the factory with unresolved issues and that rewards the self-reliant owner." - Buccaneer
	0

05-10-2010, 08:39 PM	#24
Weldangrind Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Sardis, BC, Canada Posts: 25,977	I've got dozens of Hot Rod magazines, but I never got around to cataloging the tech articles. :? The concensus in the tech stuff I've read is that in a wet flow application (carb or TBI), you need some texture to prevent fuel puddling. The air and fuel mixture needs to tumble and atomize properly. In a dry flow application (tuned port, TPI, etc), the intake runners only flow air, so no fuel atomization is needed. As a result, a perfectly smooth surface is the most efficient in dry flow. I have no proof. I only know what I've read. __________________ Weldangrind "I figure I'm well-prepared for coping with a bike that comes from the factory with unresolved issues and that rewards the self-reliant owner." - Buccaneer
	0

05-10-2010, 10:17 PM	#26
anthonyfa18 Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: montreal Posts: 242	that is very good info but i went into my book and my info is right. you have your way and i have mine. my ways works in cars (honda and hyundai) and now it is showing in my atv. my atv run god look at my videos, so let just settle it, when is the race :evil: __________________ 2008 gio beast 200cc mod list YTX14-BS battery mod,gy6 carb 250cc,custom intake,125cc cf dirtbike muffler,MPR filter/intake,performance cdi,ngk iridium xi dpr8eix-9,performance coil pack and wire, pro taper handle bar, Gio air shocks, yam swing arm bus
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05-11-2010, 11:13 AM	#30
Weldangrind Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Sardis, BC, Canada Posts: 25,977	Welcome Ace! Please take the time to post in the Introduce Yourself section. __________________ Weldangrind "I figure I'm well-prepared for coping with a bike that comes from the factory with unresolved issues and that rewards the self-reliant owner." - Buccaneer
	0

05-09-2010, 03:12 PM	#17
waynev Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: London, Ontario Posts: 1,097	Sorry, i have to disagree that a 26mm carb will outperform a 30mm carb and i'm not sure about your intake manifold theory, you are using a rad hose which has a smooth surface inside, a smooth surfaced intake manifold is the worst thing you can use, a course surface, like the one inside the OEM manifold does a much better job at atomizing the fuel and some turbulance is also better than none to also help with atomization so i'm ok with the slight bends. I had to up the main jet 4 sizes and the pilot 2 sizes and the clip is on the 2nd richest setting on my Mikuni PZ30 carb so this only tells me that the 30mm is moving more air which in turn calls for more fuel which in turn means more power, telling us you didn't have to rejet only leads me to believe that you are moving less air, hence the need for less fuel, assuming your carb came jetted for the 150cc it was designed for.
	0

05-10-2010, 07:55 AM	#22
waynev Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: London, Ontario Posts: 1,097	Yes, a polished/smooth intake tube is best for AIR flow, not for fuel/air flow.
	0

05-10-2010, 09:25 PM	#25
waynev Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: London, Ontario Posts: 1,097	Well you can start by going to any performance intake manifold maunfacturer and ask them why none of their performance manifolds are polished inside, there's a reason you know, then there's articles like this ( bottom of the page ) http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Arti...orsepower.aspx The courser surface actually aids the flow of the air/fuel mixture and will stop the fuel from puddling on the smooth sides of a polished intake tube, now on the exhaust, polished to a mirror surface will increase the flow, and on todays direct fuel injected engines, polish away, but when fuel and air are moving thru the tube a course surface will outperform a mirror/smooth surface. I kinda learned this theory the opposite way, i had an RC plane on floats, when the water was calm i could barely takeoff, it turned out i had very smooth floats and the smooth surface was actually sticking them to the water, after a 100 grit sanding the plane would takeoff no problem.
	0

05-11-2010, 10:34 AM	#28
AceCombat Join Date: May 2010 Location: Smiths Falls, Ontario Posts: 45	Hate for this to be my first post but here goes. Anthony I hate to break it to you but you are wrong. Porting and polishing are 2 separate things when you read about it in your mags. Porting is actually making the passages bigger not smoother and polishing is well polishing the exhaust. You want the passage that carries the air/fuel mixture to be rough. Smooth will decrease the amount of fuel and lean out your engine. Rough allows for proper atomization of the mixture. This will result in a more complete burn resulting in more power. You can create more power by getting more fuel and more air but you have to keep the mixture right. So for ever increase in fuel you must allow more air and vice versa. You can smooth the intake after the air filter and take away any bends in the exhaust but anywhere fuel and air are going to be must not have a smooth surface. I am a mechanic of 18 years and i have built many race engines and small race engines. My first real build was a 100cc shifter go kart at school. Top speed was 90kmh Before we did the porting and polishing after 105kmh. Oh yeah by the way I am the owner of a Gio Mini beast 110cc I picked up for 125.00 off a guy who couldn't get it running turned out to be a starter switch and 20 mins of my time. We have it hitting about 70kmh right now but soon to be doing some top secret mods. Will post pics soon.
	0