Wayyy off topic: I bought an electric car...

[Landsvw]

My sons weird car, and behind that the other weird car, Fiat 500e

[Emerikol]

Originally Posted by Megadan

The only way to truly make electric vehicles as capable and convenient as a ICE powered vehicle, outside of the previously mentioned range issues at high speed, would be to have battery systems that could be swapped out in a matter of a few minutes and charged while not in use. I won't even go into the practicality nightmare of that whole scenario.

Not to hijack this thread, but there was quite a bit of talk doing this for training airplanes (think Cessna 152's and possibly 172's). They had the recharge technology optimized to about 0.75 to 1.0, meaning the batteries could produce 45 minutes of run time with an hour charge (or 45 seconds of run time per minute charge, if you really wanted to split hairs). Since most training flights are an hour, it made sense for the flight school to have two battery packs per airplane and swap them out between lessons. The issue came down to logistics on the swap out. Apparently a lot of test platform airplanes were getting scratched and damaged around the battery area by the guys swapping the batteries out. Add into that the batteries cost about $19,000 each (and the plan was to have two per airplane), and it just wasn't financially viable. For comparison, overhauling a Lycoming O-360 (180HP horizontally opposed four cylinder engine found in most Cessna 172's and Piper Warriors, the two most popular training aircraft in the world) would cost about $25,000, and that's if absolutely EVERYTHING had to be replaced. Most overhauls come in at about $15-$20K. Finally, the TBO on the ICE engines is 2,000 hours. The battery packs started showing severe degradation about about 1,200 flight hours. I think it's a technology that will eventually get there, but it's a long way off for the aviation community.

Lands, I'm really happy you're enjoying the new electric car. Mrs. E wants a Tesla, but I think that's more because they are very good looking and so far have done the most with driver and technology advancements. Not ruling it out, but as for right now it just doesn't make financial sense to dump one of the vehicles for a range-limited ride. I think your situation is pretty indicative of everyone who is considering an E-vehicle. It's good for short trips around town and running errands, but anything more than that and it's into the ICE vehicle for the road trip.

[Landsvw]

Really interesting about the airplanes! My dad was an Alaskan pilot, learned to fly in Haines Alaska and had approx 8-9 planes over his life span. I took pilot ground school in high school but didn’t pass the FAA test, Due to my lame math skills. so never went any further...

Both son and I would love a Tesla. Buuuutttt the price is ridiculous. Although, having said that, the price on a new F350 is the same as those Tesla’s, and is also ridiculous. So, I stick to used and cheaper cars.

But, yes, your point is exactly right. At this point, and, it’s changing I’d say in the next 5-10 years, but at this point the electric vehicle is the second vehicle for that short range stuff we all do. If I keep it on liability insurance, it only costs me 17$ more a month, and, the price of it, for me (with the trading and rebates) is free.

The big picture is really hard to calculate, but we have to try.
What’s the cost, in $$ and environmentally of those lithium batteries?
What’s the cost of the vehicle?
What’s the cost of using the vehicle?
What’s the cost of your time, if on a trip you must charge it?
What’s the cost in $$ or environmentally in the cost of electric (is it hydro or coal? For ex.)

I’m sure there are other factors I’m overlooking. I once was kind of intrigued a few years ago by a new Toyota Prius. But, when I listed all those factors, against using my 2002 F350 which I paid 4700$ for, and, granted it has 260,000 miles but is still a reliable vehicle, I found that I could drive the truck 10 years before I’d break even at approx 25,000$ for the Toyota.

We humans want something, we rationalize all the drawbacks, get the thing we want, but many times overlook the fact that it might not have been the smartest thing in the world.

These goofy Fiats, in 2014 cost 33,000$ new! Chrysler said they were losing 10-14,000$ per car on them! This is because of the battery. They made them specifically to be compliant in California so they could sell all their other ICE cars. But didn’t care if they sold or not. They were playing a game with the regulations. A legal version of the VW dieselgate essentially. Now, according to the carfax records, I’m third owner. First owner leased it. Second owner lost it to the finance company and it went to auction. The dealership I got it from bought it, the lien was dropped and I bought it for a mere pittance of its original value.

Nothing makes sense about this car and it’s price except for me getting it super cheap and being able to use it super cheaply. Anyway, I’m rambling but sure is a good discussion!

[Emerikol]

Lands, if you're interested in picking the aviation thing back up, look into getting an electronic E-6B (https://www.amazon.com/ASA-654385923...s%2C321&sr=8-1). it takes all the old whiz-wheel math and makes it fit in the palm of your hand without any long-hand calculation or dead reckoning. ForeFlight has also been approved as an Electronic Flight Bag, and you can file a flight plan right out of the app. Whenever I fly with my iPad now, I have every sectional for North America and Central America ready to go. 100% updated. It's all pretty handy and easy, certainly much more convenient than flying was 20 years ago.

As for the electric conversion for pretty much everything, I think we're going about it the wrong way. You're 100% correct that the environmental cost of mining the elements for these new batteries far outweighs any benefit to not using internal combustion engines (which, by the way, all the elements that are mined out of the earth are mined with diesel mining trucks, think about that for a second). Personally, I'm in the pure hydrogen/hydrogen fuel cell camp. Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe, over 2/3rdof the planet is covered in water. What's water? H-2-O. That's two Hydrogen molecules and one Oxygen molecule. Hydrogen is flammable, and when you add an oxidizer like, oh, I don't know, maybe OXYGEN, you make it REALLY flammable! So why doesn't water burn? It's the molecular bonds holding those elements together. If you break those bonds, then you have a nearly unlimited supply of clean burning fuel. HHO generators and Browns Gas Generators (essentially the same thing, the Browns Gas Generators just use a powdered catalyst in the reaction chamber) have already been proven to be perfectly adaptable to the current internal combustion engines on the road today. That's where I think the future lies. Not in rare earth elements that are mined from another country, but in safe, clean power from a hugely abundant resource that can be found anywhere. I made an HHO generator years ago when I was living in Georgia. It didn't do much, but it ran my lawnmower for a couple hours. Still, for building something in my garage with absolutely barbaric scientific tools, it was a pretty interesting experiment. Here's a link to the website that has the absolute most up to date info on catalytic hydrogen extraction, if you're interested: http://hho4free.com/

[Landsvw]

I’d love to get involved in aviation again but, probably won’t as wife has made it clear motorcycles are bad enough haha! But if I did, I think I’d go to ultralights. Dads last airplane was an experimental Pietenpol Home built that he bought wrecked, and finished, and flew that a lot until his medical condition (heart) caused him to not have a license any more.

And, yes hydrogen. Has its own set of issues but definitely is there on the table. I kind of think they will come up with a battery that’s not so bad for the planet too, maybe. And we could have hydrogen, and battery, and hopefully some more solar tech will give us that as well. I’m cautiously hopeful if we don’t all go to war, or die from some virus, Corona or otherwise lol!

[Emerikol]

The ultralight market is flush with options right now. With the current state of affairs in the world generally, and this country specifically, there are tons of deals out there. I like ultralights, but the restrictions wouldn't at all fit for the kind of flying I do. Has your dad looked into BasicMed? Might be a way for him to get back in the sky. The Experimental market has quite a few two place models available (Kitfox being my personal favorite, at the moment), and even a few of the four place variety (Velocity being my absolute favorite experimental of all time, with the Sling4 right behind it). All in all, I wouldn't trade flight time for anything, except maybe flight time in a different airplane.

I agree that the battery technology is going to have to go a long way, but the advances that have already come about are pretty amazing in their own right. Remember how much of an industry disruption simple NiCad rechargeable batteries were? Now look at the rechargeable technology that we carry around with us everyday and don't give a second thought to. If you'll pardon the awful aviation pun, The sky really is the limit there! I think that we'll be coming through the current turbulent times just fine. It's crazy, nobody can deny that, but take a second to step back and just breathe. You'll feel tons better. (not "you" specifically, but the world in general). I'm really enjoying this conversation, Thanks!

[Landsvw]

I’m holding out for this tho...

https://gstylemag.com/2015/10/21/fus...eactor-review/

[Landsvw]

I am enjoying this conversation as well! Thank you! Dad passed away in 2008, but honestly I think had been flying illegally for a long time, as his heart didn’t pass the test around 1992. He was flying out of a private strip in Alaska, and would never take passengers. So I think... well, I think he was being a stubborn old goat that loved to fly. I threw his ashes out of a friends plane in 2010, over his favorite moose hunting grounds. That was a bit “touch and go” (oh great another aviation pun) because I realized I’d have to open a bag of ash in a super cub, and then a window, and most likely just have ash everywhere in the plane. But what I did was, opened the bag and the window and tossed it out. It emptied on the way down, making a gloriously cool stream of ash as the bag emptied. I know, morbid. But it was a pretty awesome day, too, as the friend pilot flew me around after that and we looked at stuff.

Yeah I think the world will keep posturing, but, hopefully some reasonable order will be found as we slowly emerge from this virus.

Life is good in our 1st world country, even with all its problems. We definitely need some self reflection on how to proceed and, maybe look beyond ourselves a bit more.

[Emerikol]

Sorry to hear about your dad. My father passed away about 11 years ago. A flight instructor killed in a plane crash; who'd of seen that one coming? Super cubs are nice, but to me, they're the aviation equivalent of electric vehicles and Urals. They won't go far (which is why someone flying across the country to pick one up is worth an article in a flying mag) or fast (Ural all the way), but they're still a lot of fun to play with. I'm in the market for a smaller four place IFR trainer. Most likely a Piper Warrior, Cherokee 235 or 250, or, if I can find a smoking hot deal on one, a Cherokee 6-300. They're getting expensive lately, though. That's why I really like the Sling TSi. It's fully equipped with a glass cockpit, Cruises at 155KTAS, and runs on 8 gal/hr of MOGAS.

In the meantime, I'm just trying to raise a good kid who doesn't turn into a serial killer, and not go full Mad Max on all the left lane hogs on my commute to work...

That's a nice addition and all, but it won't work without this:
https://www.oreillyauto.com/flux-500.html

[Landsvw]

Hahah! Nice on the flux capacitor.

Yeah the super cub in Alaska is a big deal for short, rough strip take off and landings. Was/is the go to airplane up there. Lots of horsepower and giant tires, and etc.

I’ll try and get some of dads plane pictures into this thread, but might not work as I have a hard time getting good quality pictures in here.

[Landsvw]

Let’s see if this works

[Landsvw]

The black and white one is his first plane, early 1960’s, Taylorcraft. Flew it from Alaska to Michigan and back. Engine quit, while in Michigan, landed on a road, hit a sign. Damaged the wing but fixed and flew it back. That’s my mom who is still here and is 83.

[Emerikol]

Nice! Taylorcraft is/was a lot like the Ercoupes. Very cheap, forgiving, easy to fly airplanes. Cubs are great for the Alaskan bush, although Aviat Husky's are rapidly pushing them out. A damaged wing on a forced landing nowadays would result in three or four weeks of FAA investigations, tow fees to tow the airplane to a local airport, and then whatever the repair cost was for a licensed tech to do the work. The FAA mission statement is "We're not happy until you're not happy." How the world has changed in the last twenty or thirty years.

So we got even more off topic with this thread than just an electric vehicle. I'm truly sorry for taking over your thread on that with what should really have been it's own thread. Still, I'm enjoying it.

[Landsvw]

No worries on the off topic. The title of the thread is wayyy off topic, lol

Here’s the Pietenpol he built, or I guess, rebuilt after it had been wrecked.

[Landsvw]

Here it is in our yard, probably around 1988 as that is my VW dasher in the background.