Oil

[dave92029]

I agree that the diesel oils are very good, BUT the one thought that I could not get out of my head is that Diesel engines typically run at very low RPM (1500 -3000 RPM) and my mighty RX3 is Often running at 7,000 RPM and above.

The RX3 is operating at Twice the RPM of a diesel engine, so how can an oil made for a low reving diesel also be appropriate for a high reving engine with a wet clutch?

I decided that the $$ cost for 1.7L of motorcycle specific JASO oil was so reasonable, that my mighty RX3 deserved It!

[SpudRider]

That's good logic, Dave. I understand your decision, and I respect it. I'm not trying to be argumentative.

Unlike other forums, we don't engage in arguments here regarding oil, tires, or anything else. Hence, we don't dread 'oil threads,' or threads on any other topic. We like to exchange ideas, and learn from each other. Therefore, I think these topics are fun, and informative for everyone.

Regarding high engine rpms, my Honda CRF250X will rev to 12,500 prms. I use Mobil Delvac 1300 in the crankcase side of the engine, and Valvoline Max Life, synthetic ATF in the transmission side of the engine. Many CRF250X owners also use Rotella T in the crankcase side of the engine.

I added the necessary equipment, and got a license plate for my CRF250X. I ride this bike a lot on pavement, as well as on nasty single track. I installed a Trail Tech Vapor computer, so I have an accurate speedometer/odometer. I now have ridden about 15,000 miles on my CRF250X, and the engine is in excellent condition. Therefore, I am confident the Mobil Delvac will also do well in the engine of my Zongshen RX3.

[dave92029]

I really enjoy seeing photos of the "roads" that Spud rides. No stop signs, traffic lights or traffic.

Putting high mileage on your bikes on these "roads" is really awesome. Please continue to post more photos of where you ride, we enjoy seeing them.

Thanks

[SpudRider]

Thank you, Dave.

[SpudRider]

Regarding motor oil, I think everyone has a perfect right to choose whatever motor oil he likes. I also respect the desire for others to experiment with different motor oils, to see which oils work best in their machines.

[Jay In Milpitas]

[QUOTE=dave92029;194974

The RX3 is operating at Twice the RPM of a diesel engine, so how can an oil made for a low reving diesel also be appropriate for a high reving engine with a wet clutch?
[/QUOTE]

Rational thought Dave, just not perceived at the right angle. It's not that those oils are formulated for low rev engines, rather that they are so good, that they can also withstand the diesel environment and punishment.

Am I making sense here?

My original point was to beware of oils that can do bad stuff to the clutch plates. Looking back I see I didn't emphasize that correctly.

[SpudRider]

Originally Posted by Jay In Milpitas

Rational thought Dave, just not perceived at the right angle. It's not that those oils are formulated for low rev engines, rather that they are so good, that they can also withstand the diesel environment and punishment...

That's exactly correct. All motor oils have advanced tremendously in the last fifteen or so years. The commercial diesel oils are not degraded for commercial use. Instead, excellent oil is further enhanced to withstand the rigors of commerical diesel applications.

The following thread is really quite informative.

http://www.chinariders.net/showthread.php?t=13021

The rational for using 15W/40 engine oil in motorcycles is exhaustively examined in the following two articles. If someone is interesting in learning more about motorcycle engine oil, the time required to read these two articles will be handsomely rewarded.

http://www.calsci.com/motorcycleinfo/Oils1.html
http://www.calsci.com/motorcycleinfo/Consumables.html

[detours]

The consumables article states, '10w-40 oils should not be used in a motorcycle that runs the engine oil through the transmission.'

Maybe I'm missing something, but that contradicts the owner's manual for every Japanese bike with a shared oil sump that I've ever looked at, including the RX3. They all recommend JASO-MA or better 10W-40 motorcycle-specific oil.

[SpudRider]

Originally Posted by detours

The consumables article states, '10w-40 oils should not be used in a motorcycle that runs the engine oil through the transmission.'

Maybe I'm missing something, but that contradicts the owner's manual for every Japanese bike with a shared oil sump that I've ever looked at, including the RX3. They all recommend JASO-MA or better 10W-40 motorcycle-specific oil.

Yes, I read that. This caveat only applies to non-synthetic motor oils. The author is saying the 4X spread in viscosity from 10W to 40W requires a larger amount of VIIs (viscosity index improvers.) Synthetic oils typically don't employ many VIIs. The VIIs are fragile, and are sheared by the motorcycle's transmission. Also, the inclusion of more VIIs reduces the amount of base oil. That is one reason why the author recommends 15W/40 motor oil, which only has a 2.5X spread in viscosity, and uses a smaller volume of VIIs. Here is a quote from the first article.

http://www.calsci.com/motorcycleinfo/Oils1.html

An oil sold as 10w-40 is no thicker than 10 weight oil under Winter (10w) conditions, meaning below freezing. The 40 means it is no thinner than 40 weight oil at 212° Fahrenheit. So, the first number tells us the performance of the oil at or below the temperature of freezing water, and the second number tells us the performance at the temperature of boiling water. The chemicals added to the oil to accomplish this are called Viscosity Index Improvers (VIIs).

To make a 10w-40 oil, the manufacturer would start out with a 10 weight oil as the base stock. All by itself, this oil would thin out so much at normal operating temperatures that the oil film would be useless. So, they add these very special very long molecules, the VIIs. The VII molecules are as much as 1000 times as long as an oil molecule. The VII molecules curl up in a little ball at room temperature, but as the temperature gets higher they uncurl and stretch out, like a cat sleeping in the sunlight. The more stretched out the molecule is, the more it impedes the normal flow of the oil, thus raising the effective viscosity. Now, this sounds just a little too good to be true. Well, there are two catches: first, these molecules are not lubricants, so the more of them that you add the less oil you have sitting around lubricating things. Secondly, these VII molecules can be broken into pieces by various pressures and forces, like being squeezed through the transmission gears in a motorcycle or the hydraulic valves in a diesel engine. Every time a VII molecule gets broken, the oil loses some of its high temperature viscosity. Synthetic oils made from pure PAOs and/or Diesters typically have very few VIIs, so these oils are far less subject to viscosity breakdown due to shearing of the VII package. As a result, synthetics are far more stable in a motorcycle engine.

10w-30 oil increases its viscosity at high temperatures by a factor of three, which requires a significant amount of these VII molecules. 10w-40 oil increases its high temperature viscosity by a factor of four, which requires even more even longer molecules. 20w-50, which sounds a lot like 10w-40, only increases its high temperature viscosity by a factor of two and a half, so it requires fewer of these molecules than even 10w-30. 15w-40 also increases its high temperature viscosity by about two and a half, so this oil is also substantially more stable than 10w-40. Most passenger car oils today use inexpensive VII molecules that break apart relatively easily. Conversely, most diesel engine oil VIIs are chosen from more expensive chemicals that are more shear stable, since an oil change in a large diesel is expected to last for 15,000 to 150,000 miles.

The author also mentions that the VIIs in a good, commercial, 15W/40 motor oil are manufactured from more expensive chemicals that are more shear resistant.

I think it's important to note the author really recommends 5W/40, synthetic, diesel motor oils, as used by LeeR (post #2). However, since I typically ride 15,000 miles a year, and regularly change my motor oil, I really like the economy of using the Mobil Delvac 1300 for $8/gallon.

[SpudRider]

Here is the executive summary from the second article.

http://www.calsci.com/motorcycleinfo/Consumables.html

The commercial grade oils are clearly superior to the mass market oils. For the best protection in your bike or car, use Shell Rotella Synthetic, available at Wal-Mart in blue containers for $13 / gallon. For the best petroleum oil you can buy, get Shell Rotella T, Mobil Delvac 1300, or Chevron Delo 400, about $7 / gallon at any auto parts store. On the back of most oil cans is a circular stamp with the certification. Avoid oils that say "energy conserving" in the bottom half of the donut. These oils contain friction modifier additives that could cause clutch slipping over time. All XXw-20 and XXw-30 oils are energy conserving, and should not be used in your motorcycle. 10w-40 oils should not be used in a motorcycle that runs the engine oil through the transmission.

However, you will note, the author recommends several 10W/40 synthetic motor oils. Therefore, I suspect the author is also in agreement with Dave, the original poster (op) of this thread (post #1).

Shell Rotell T6 is currently selling for $19.57/gallon at Walmart. Mobil Delvac 1300 is currently selling for $11.22/gallon. Using the Mobil rebate of $5/gallon, I can get the Mobil Delvac 1300 for $6.22/gallon. Since I ride a lot of miles, and change my engine oil regularly, I have chosen to use the non-synthetic, diesel motor oil, with very good results.

[SpudRider]

Originally Posted by dave92029

I just finished changing my oil. Not too messy .

The oil used during my first oil change was Shell Rotella T. Rotella T provides the API certifications but does not, or is no JASO certified.

As I understand, the JASO certification is suppose to help the oil lubricate both engine and clutch.

I have been sensing that my clutch has been slightly slipping when it is initially engaged, so I decided to give the JASO oil a try.

I selected a synthetic blend by Castrol 10W40 Actevo 4T that I got at Walmart for less than $6/Qt. This is more expensive that the Shell Rotella T, but not that much.

After changing the oil I went for a short ride on a local twisty road, Harmony Grove. The engine at idle seemed quieter, and yes, the clutch doesn't slip like it used to. The other advantage is the engine feels stronger when "trying" to accelerate.

My initial impression is that the JASO synthetic blend oil is well worth the couple of extra $ for 1.7L of oil.

Castrol makes excellent motor oil. Since your clutch is no longer slipping and the engine feels stronger to you, you obviously made a good choice. Thanks for starting such an interesting thread.

[SpudRider]

The following links show that Rotella T 15W/40, and Rotella T6 5W/40 are JASO-MA certified.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_Rotella_T
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...Number=1810955
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...Number=1696854

[SpudRider]

My Mobil Delvac 1300 is not JASO-MA certified. However, it is API certified SM, SL, in addition to the commercial, CJ-4, CI-4 Plus, CI-4, and CH-4 certifications.

[Riceburner]

Gotta tell ya folks, I know sh__/stuff, I know lot's of stuff and even know stuff that nobody else knows... but I have had the opportunity to learn even more stuff here with all of you, great .

[keithmaine]

This is an awesome forum

Thanks guys