Shipping Updates??

[crabjoe]

Originally Posted by Deckard_Cain

Well I think this is a BINGO right here. Court doc dated March 2020.

So two things are going to happen now, either Taotao China/Jinyun/Tao USA are going to redesign or purchase compliant catalytic convertors (increasing the cost of the bike) and then have to either submit a new COC application, or make sure the new convertors meet the original specification...

OR ... TaoTao stops production of those models forever.

But given the 100,000+ numbers of highway use motorcycles (street legal) stated in the court doc, I'm guessing this was happening on ALL of their street legal machines and that they won't abandon that product or market completely.

What is sad is that so many owners of Taotao street legal bikes rip the exhaust off right away anyhow, and install one with NO catalytic convertor at all.

So the environmental impact is the same anyways.

When I started reading the doc, it felt a little like Deja vu and I see why now.

About 10 years ago, the EPA dinged them, but at that time, the fine was much less.

https://www.epa.gov/sites/production...tao-062810.pdf

[JakeD]

My research has them shipping under 3 or 4 names to TaoUSA... A load just left to GVA Brand this week labeled ATVs... I’m assuming there is some sneaky sneaky going on... in the immortal words of Oleta Adams....
“ You can reach me by railway, you can reach me by trailway
You can reach me on an airplane, you can reach me with your mind
You can reach me by caravan, cross the desert like an Arab man
I don't care how you get here, just get here if you can…"

[crabjoe]

Originally Posted by JakeD

My research has them shipping under 3 or 4 names to TaoUSA... A load just left to GVA Brand this week labeled ATVs... I’m assuming there is some sneaky sneaky going on... in the immortal words of Oleta Adams....
“ You can reach me by railway, you can reach me by trailway
You can reach me on an airplane, you can reach me with your mind
You can reach me by caravan, cross the desert like an Arab man
I don't care how you get here, just get here if you can…"

I saw the shipment to GVA brands.. But I'm pretty sure it's a separate Canadian company. They've actually been getting shipments from TaoTao China. They haven't been getting nearly as many shipments as Tao Canada, but they've been getting them.

The shipments to Tao Canada has lately been mostly electric vehicles. A couple months back they got some scooters and next thing I saw was dealerships having the ATM-50 scooters showing "in stock" To be honest, if these shipments to Tao Canada showed up in the US for sale, I'm not sure how they got around any EPA issues or even possible tariff issues to bring something into the US from Canada, that's not Canadian made.

Until Tao Tao can get these vehicles to meet emissions and also eliminate their EPA fine, I just don't see how they could get anything into the US for sale, especially vehicles meant to be street legal.

Personally, I think if I don't see traction as to ATVs start becoming available by the end of Nov, it's take to cancel my order. I probably should cancel now being that other dealers are saying they don't expect any Bull 200s till 2021 and even then, they don't know when they'll actually be available. Heck, all the dealers have been saying they're expecting Rhino 250s for a couple months now and even they're still not available.

VITACCI (RPS) has been getting shipments in but they're NOT TaoTao. Very similar, but not the same. So there's hope for a TaoTao shipments, but Jiangsu Tiking, builders of Vitacci, isn't under EPA investigation or have a huge fine hanging over their head either.

[JakeD]

Any thoughts on Apollo v. Tao for quality?

[culcune]

Originally Posted by crabjoe

When I started reading the doc, it felt a little like Deja vu and I see why now.

About 10 years ago, the EPA dinged them, but at that time, the fine was much less.

https://www.epa.gov/sites/production...tao-062810.pdf

Around the same time, there was a company called Wildfire, headquartered in Ohio. The majority of their products were OEM by Lifan. We also had American Lifan headquartered in Dallas, TX (vs. So. Cal) which was a mostly completely different company than today's American Lifan. They had nothing to do with Wildfire (American Lifan did not) but would get into trouble on their own thanks to a little 49cc 2-stroke scooter.

The EPA cracked down on Wildfire in a similar manner to Tao, with tens of thousands of bikes alleged to be scofflaws. At the time, pre-Amazon (Amazon might have been around but they weren't selling motorcycles), Chinese bikes were mostly sold on Ebay, Wildfire being no exception. Well, once the fines hit, and accusations (Lifan as the OEM was mentioned in the court filings) flew, Wildfire was no more.

The story of American Lifan: American Lifan seemed to be some kind of franchisee of Lifan in China (not really, but they seemed to be some kind of independent importer). They tried to paint themselves as the only authorized US distributor for Lifan, but others got around A. Lifan and sold bikes and parts themselves. Hooper or Hopper in the Pacific Northwest was one such outfit, and he was actually more reputable than Am. Lifan who seemed like they were becoming more and more shady. There were other Chinese people in the L.A. area selling Lifan bikes via Ebay. If I remember correctly, the very popular LF200-GY 5 dual-sport was one of the, if not THE, first Chinese bike with EPA/DOT certification. Most other brands were like the Hawk with only EPA certification as off-road motorcycles, but most states, including California (seemed to depend on which DMV office--it seemed the rural ones registered them vs. the urban ones), allowed plating. American Lifan tried to shut down the others, and there was a lot of infighting going on. Soon after, when they tried to certify a 50cc scooter, there were some improprieties found by the EPA and American Lifan shut down (the economy was tanking, which really shouldn't have affected cheap transportation, but it did).

I tell you this sad tale (two tales) because Tao could go under. Hopefully not, but it could happen. From what I understand, Tao is pretty much a North American company, meaning you won't find them sold all over the world or domestically in China. I believe Canada and US. They are kind of a niche brand specifically for our markets.

On a side note--the current American Lifan is an offshoot of Lifan in China. They came to life circa 2015-ish, as far as bikes go, with the introduction of the Pony 100. It was a copy of the Honda Ape 100 mini dual-sport sold in Japan and elsewhere (not here). It was a neat little bike with a vertical 99cc thumper (as opposed to the horizontal thumpers found in the majority of minis--those based on pitbikes). The company also distributes small engined tools (i.e. generators)

[JakeD]

I’m kinda torn... I talked with Dalton, over at Q9 today. I gotta say, if all the people over there had the customer service skills of Dalton, there would be less bad reviews online. Sounds like they are getting ready to roll into June’s orders. There is hope for December, but of course no guarantees. Guess my expectations are more for the spring. I’m gonna stick with them for now. I didn’t ask what label Tao is shipping under of if they are coming out of Canada. Dalton, if Q9 is lurking... they ought to give you a raise.

[crabjoe]

Originally Posted by JakeD

I’m kinda torn... I talked with Dalton, over at Q9 today. I gotta say, if all the people over there had the customer service skills of Dalton, there would be less bad reviews online. Sounds like they are getting ready to roll into June’s orders. There is hope for December, but of course no guarantees. Guess my expectations are more for the spring. I’m gonna stick with them for now. I didn’t ask what label Tao is shipping under of if they are coming out of Canada. Dalton, if Q9 is lurking... they ought to give you a raise.

Start June pre-orders? Was this specific to given vehicle or was he speaking in general about all their back orders?

I'm asking because I'm trying to figure out if "Dalton" is just a smooth talker, if somehow my early May order got lost, or if he's being honest because he was telling you about a specific model within a brand.

If you can't tell, I have a very hard time believing anything they've been saying. Because all the only answer about deliveries I've been getting from them is, "It'll be shipped to you in 2-4 week", which changed in "late Sept to by the end of October", and as of early Oct, "by the end of November, possibly early December".

When they requested I put in reviews for products that haven't been shipped yet, I put in truthful review... that the review was negative based on not ever receiving the product. They responded to me in email telling me what happened isn't how they do business.. That was months ago. And based on my dealings with them, it sure seems like they just keep blowing smoke...

The only thing they've done right, since I've placed my order with them in early May, is that they've stopped taking pre-orders on most of the products. Even that took them months and months to do.

[Deckard_Cain]

Originally Posted by JakeD

I’m kinda torn... I talked with Dalton, over at Q9 today. I gotta say, if all the people over there had the customer service skills of Dalton, there would be less bad reviews online. Sounds like they are getting ready to roll into June’s orders. There is hope for December, but of course no guarantees. Guess my expectations are more for the spring. I’m gonna stick with them for now. I didn’t ask what label Tao is shipping under of if they are coming out of Canada. Dalton, if Q9 is lurking... they ought to give you a raise.

Originally Posted by crabjoe

Start June pre-orders? Was this specific to given vehicle or was he speaking in general about all their back orders?

I'm asking because I'm trying to figure out if "Dalton" is just a smooth talker, if somehow my early May order got lost, or if he's being honest because he was telling you about a specific model within a brand.

If you can't tell, I have a very hard time believing anything they've been saying. Because all the only answer about deliveries I've been getting from them is, "It'll be shipped to you in 2-4 week", which changed in "late Sept to by the end of October", and as of early Oct, "by the end of November, possibly early December".

When they requested I put in reviews for products that haven't been shipped yet, I put in truthful review... that the review was negative based on not ever receiving the product. They responded to me in email telling me what happened isn't how they do business.. That was months ago. And based on my dealings with them, it sure seems like they just keep blowing smoke...

The only thing they've done right, since I've placed my order with them in early May, is that they've stopped taking pre-orders on most of the products. Even that took them months and months to do.

My order was from May 29th... no update on my order either.

I did email them and sent/explained the PDF about the new EPA violations alleged.

They "assured" me that the Tao vehicles, specifically the Hellcat, are in compliance. Not sure if that is because the HC doesn't have a cat convertor, has an "offroad use only" sticker or something, or what.

Also they stated more motorcycle inventory is expected early 2021, which is what they had told me since this summer. So that ETA has not changed in my talks with them.

Of course, they also said I could still cancel if I wanted to. I was very close to doing so and ponying up the extra for a Boom Vader gen 2.

For now, I wait. I'll give it til Feb/Mar and check again.

[JerseyTBR7]

I ordered a TBR7 back in July from Q9 and kept getting pushed back every month. I hung in there but eventually just gave up.

Finally in late September, I cancelled my order with Q9.

I ordered from TX Powersports, and it arrived to my door in less than a week, along with the title in the mail the same day.

I was very happily surprised with TX Powersports/Arlington.

I can't comment on the shipping situation given the pandemic, but it does seem odd why one supplier has a plentiful stock of TBR7 models and Q9 could get none. And it turned out to be just about the same exact low price too. It did not make sense, but hey, we move on. Hopefully Q9 can get their inventory situation straightened out.

[culcune]

You have to take into account that Tao is headquartered in the Dallas area. So is RPS. TXPowersports sells numerous TBR7s and Hawks without even really having to try, not to mention they probably have some backdoor deals with Manny.

Another retailer with a lot of clout (they are a lot more insider, as in China itself) is Powersportsmax in the greater metropolitan Los Angeles region. They rebrand a whole slew of bikes with their 'X-Pro' name, such as X-Pro Hawks.

[JakeD]

Or, Q9 has no idea what they are doing. I just had a conversation with a guy on Facebook who had ordered in September, his delivery will be Monday... If he truly receives it on Monday, I may pull my order and order from somewhere else. It seems as though they are holding out old orders for lower amounts in hopes that people will cancel and then they only need to fulfill the orders for the raised prices. If that is what is going on, that isn’t a good thing.

[crabjoe]

Originally Posted by Deckard_Cain

They "assured" me that the Tao vehicles, specifically the Hellcat, are in compliance. Not sure if that is because the HC doesn't have a cat convertor, has an "offroad use only" sticker or something, or what.

I thought the Tao Hellcat was street legal, No?

BTW, from my understanding, even offroad only vehicles have emissions requirements. Not sure if it's as strict as a street legal vehicle, but I do know they have emissions requirements. That's why many offroad only vehicles can't be sold in California.

Anyone know how cats work? I'm asking because I recently found out my bike, which I didn't think had a cat actually has two. One is in the header pipe and the 2nd one is built into the silencer (muffler).

[Deckard_Cain]

Originally Posted by crabjoe

I thought the Tao Hellcat was street legal, No?

BTW, from my understanding, even offroad only vehicles have emissions requirements. Not sure if it's as strict as a street legal vehicle, but I do know they have emissions requirements. That's why many offroad only vehicles can't be sold in California.

Anyone know how cats work? I'm asking because I recently found out my bike, which I didn't think had a cat actually has two. One is in the header pipe and the 2nd one is built into the silencer (muffler).

Hellcat is street legal, yes. But not having one in front of me and going off of the youtube videos and pictures I've seen, the convertor on the bike must be very small.

They work by chemically altering the make up of the exhaust gases to be less harmful. Specifically they use oxidizing and reduction reactions to reduce NO2 emissions. If you strip of the Nitrogen and even Nitrogen Oxide, you can allow the remaining Oxygen gases to escape on their own as regular oxygen gas, O2. Which is obviously less harmful.

[idahojason]

I received an email from q9 today saying they are going to refund, and can't fill order on Bull 200 from 6 months ago.

[Deckard_Cain]

Originally Posted by idahojason

I received an email from q9 today saying they are going to refund, and can't fill order on Bull 200 from 6 months ago.

I just got the email from Dalton at Q9 about my hellcat, and a text... Tao is jerking them around and they just can't keep doing this, so they've cancelled and refunded all outstanding orders.

Inventory may be back in the Spring of 2021, but since Taotao jacked prices up now 2 times to the distributers/dealers, who knows how much it will cost.

At this point, I'm thinking my backup plan needs to kick in gear, and just pony up $300 extra for a Boom Vader gen 2.

Lord knows, come spring the Taotao will likely be the same price anyhow.