bipolar dirtbike market- including new and used

[Thumper]

"Mainstream" or "Legacy" dirt bike manufacturers eliminated the low priced dual sport. Frames went from flexible and flimsy to exotic and expensive, even for dual sport bikes. The demise of the 2-stroke engine contributed to the problem (emissions), but now, we have two types of dirt bikes to choose from: underpowered Chinese 4stroke clones and expensive non-Chinese exotics.

This just plain sucks. Why don't we have a 25-30hp 4 stroke dual sport from either Chinese or the rest in a stiff steel frame with modest components for $$3500-4000?

Chinese manufacturers are about to, or already have begun to fulfill this niche, but you can't buy them, and they are oriented towards exotic. You see ~300cc 4 stroke motocross clones from China are out there, but the seats are hard, and ergonomics are oriented to 100% standup operation (true MX), and there aren't any distributors in the US for these bikes.

If you look for old dual sport bikes to rebuild, the "WANTED, old motorcycles rebuilders" are all you see. Years ago, I found a 70's TS250 in excellent shape, fixed it up and sold it to a collector, and now I regret selling it. I assumed that the market would crank out bikes like that. Nope.

Unless something changes, I think the low end market will still be dominated by Chinese bikes. You will be faced with a $10,000 price tag or pick up a Chinese bike and modify it. WTF?

Most dual sport riders do NOT ride extreme off road. Most riders are not lean, strong, young, extreme riders pretending to be MX winners. Most just want to have some fun off road on a bike that doesn't flex like a bamboo pole, and has enough power to easily make 70mph with a headwind or a modest hill on the road. But that bike isn't available unless you spend $10,000.

I wonder what the next 5-10 years has for us. My guess is that Chinese bikes will not change. MAYBE we will see moderate performance dual sport bikes that have modestly upgraded frame stiffness, adequate shocks, and higher horsepower/torque specs. Maybe not.

[Boatguy]

In the next 5-10 years? Somebody will make an electric one of these you’re looking for, unfortunately. But it’ll probably cost as much as the KTM

[4T_Goblin]

I agree with you on this. Its a shame we can never have the one item we all actually WANT vs the items that sellers think we WOULD BUY simply because its there.

Writing an essay vs multiple choice test...haha...hope this makes sense to someone

I want to see Lifan handle the 250-400cc dual sport market and do it at a price that gets more Lifans on the road. Up the network.

[zero_dgz]

I think you, uh, forgot the KLX300 and CRF300L? $5799 MSRP on the KLX. Maybe that's a little higher than your target but what do you want for 2022? The DRZ400 is still in production as well if you want an extra pony or two.



You'll only spend $10,000+ on a modern dual sport if you do so on purpose and buy a motocross bike with blinkers. All you have to do is see your way clear not to buy a CRF450L, a Beta, or a KTM EXC and you'll get exactly what you're asking for...

[krat]

The bikes you are bemoaning are available for less than $6K from all the major Jap makers, and as you relate, they are lifetime products. Used ones 30-40-50 years old are still running and in use, not in museums.

Honda CRF300 is only $6k/ KLX300 is $6k. Many others hover around that mark that meet all your criteria.

You can buy a disposable China bike for half that, get half the performance, and replace it every 5 years, after chasing repair parts and accessories all over the internet and trying to find your dealer so you can sue him, if initial cost is your only concern.

Or you can spend twice as much and still be riding your Jap bike, and still walking into the dealership and buying parts that fit, for the next 50 years. And often those parts are bought from the son of the guy that sold you the Jap bike 50 years ago.

I will not pay $2k+ for any China bike that has zero dealer support or service, and NO, a telephone number is not a service department!

There comes a time when you have to decide if you are going to keep engaging in an activity and investing in better gear. It is the same in almost every sport.

But stop with the criticism of the "exotic and expensive Jap bikes" when they are neither. They are the very essence of getting what you pay for, but so are the China bikes.

[severely]

Originally Posted by krat

The bikes you are bemoaning are available for less than $6K from all the major Jap makers, and as you relate, they are lifetime products. Used ones 30-40-50 years old are still running and in use, not in museums.

Honda CRF300 is only $6k/ KLX300 is $6k. Many others hover around that mark that meet all your criteria.

You can buy a disposable China bike for half that, get half the performance, and replace it every 5 years, after chasing repair parts and accessories all over the internet and trying to find your dealer so you can sue him, if initial cost is your only concern.

Or you can spend twice as much and still be riding your Jap bike, and still walking into the dealership and buying parts that fit, for the next 50 years. And often those parts are bought from the son of the guy that sold you the Jap bike 50 years ago.

I will not pay $2k+ for any China bike that has zero dealer support or service, and NO, a telephone number is not a service department!

There comes a time when you have to decide if you are going to keep engaging in an activity and investing in better gear. It is the same in almost every sport.

But stop with the criticism of the "exotic and expensive Jap bikes" when they are neither. They are the very essence of getting what you pay for, but so are the China bikes.

I gather from your posts you've had some bad luck with your chinese motorcycle purchase and for that I'm truly sorry and you are entitled to your opinion on the subject of chinese motorcycles. That being said you aren't entitled to your own FACTS about the industry. You are correct that you can purchase CRF300/KLX300 for about 6k but most chinese bikes sell for around 2k which makes them 1/3 the price of jap bikes. And your assertion you can still buy parts for jap bikes 30+ years old is just plain BS. I have several friends whose jap bikes are parked/parted out because parts are NLA [no longer available]. Furthermore, many jap dealers will no longer service bikes 10 years and older. I've HAD to disassemble many new jap bikes simply because bearings weren't greased nor valve clearances set properly, similar to the Chinese bikes you now vilify. People purchase these bikes IMO because they are cheap and easy to work on and replacement parts are crazy cheap. Most purchasers are experienced vets who understand some lever of engagement/modification is necessary after purchase or young people who have little money but big desires and a willingness to learn. These Chinese bikes are at a similar level of development the japs were in the mid 70's; i.e. learning as they go and most engines are built to meet ISO-9001 specs that are worldwide industrial standards, that put them a step ahead of the aforementioned 70's era jap bikes. Have a good day krat, not trying to dump down your neck, just balance the scales so folks have a balanced, realistic view of what they're getting into.

[tknj99]

I agree with severely on this.. i did alot of research on these Chinese bikes before purchase of the Brozz and you can read all about these CG 250 bikes being sold, beaten up and still going strong after many miles/years in 3rd world countries. That added to the fact they are a clone of a bulletproof Honda engine sealed the deal for me. Now perhaps other elements may not last a decade, ie. switches/electrical and other small parts, but the beauty lies in the fact that they are readily available and cheap to find on Amazon/Ebay if/when needed as well as easy to work on and fix yourself.
Also, yes, no dealer network can be tough, but i consider this forum to be all the dealer network you need to guide you in the right direction and help should any issues arise.
Now, my feelings do change, however, when it comes to going beyond the 2k mark. I did buy and later sell an RX4 and although there was great dealer support thru CSC, when it came to aftermarket support there was none for things such as piggy-back fuel controller, ecu tune, etc. Things that are commonplace for Jap/Euro bikes. That is also why i steer people towards the carb version and more simplistic nature of that variant when deciding between FI and carb for a Chinese bike. perhaps the aftermarket may increase in the future but its probably a long way off.

[China Rider 27]

To me the question is when are the Chinese going to go strong into that 300, 400, 450cc Dual Sport market at a good price and why have they not yet done so? Maybe it is EPA related. A bike with that powerplant AND a six speed transmission really does provide the next level versatility that many are seeking.

The NC 450 looks to be the engine, somebody just needs to put a good Dual Sport bike around it at a reasonable price. Lifan?

As far as Japanese bikes new, a 300 lists for $5900 but its $8000 out the door. $2000 buys a China bike with at least 70 percent of the capability.

[Thumper]

The Zhongshen NC450 looks great, but as I said, it is oriented towards exotic, and not street legal. And of course, you can't buy them anyways!

I have been impressed with what I see available from China in the <250cc dirt bikes these days. But I did NOT pay anywhere near $2000. I paid $1400 for my dependable Storm with inverted front shocks and a decent swingarm connected to a monoshock !!! and we just paid $1369 for a TRB7 for my son

Just over $1500 AFTER delivery for the TBR just THIS WEEK!

Yup, you can buy a Yamaha TT230 for $4500, but not street legal. And the YZ450F lists at $9700 (also off road only). WRF250 is $8800. YOU CAN get an XT250 for $5200 but with standard front shocks. Looks nice actually, but over $5000! KLX is in the ball park, perhaps a couple hundred dollars more. At least the front fork is inverted on the KLX, but still, over $5000!

So I paid $1500 for two different nice Chinese dirt bikes that will easily handle the kind of use I my son and I will put them through. That is more than 3 times less than either the Kawasaki or Yamaha! Sales tax is also 1/3, and property tax (for those that pay it) is also less. This is my point. I just wish there was something in between. Just more engine performance (maybe 22-25hp), with a few more custom parts instead of generic off the shelf shifters, kick starters and a little more attention to quality on the instrument cluster. Could that cost more than TWICE what I paid for my Storm and my son's TBR7? I don't even want liquid cooling. Maybe $3000 would actually be worth it!

[Merlin]

Originally Posted by krat

The bikes you are bemoaning are available for less than $6K from all the major Jap makers, and as you relate, they are lifetime products. Used ones 30-40-50 years old are still running and in use, not in museums.

Honda CRF300 is only $6k/ KLX300 is $6k. Many others hover around that mark that meet all your criteria.

You can buy a disposable China bike for half that, get half the performance, and replace it every 5 years, after chasing repair parts and accessories all over the internet and trying to find your dealer so you can sue him, if initial cost is your only concern.

Or you can spend twice as much and still be riding your Jap bike, and still walking into the dealership and buying parts that fit, for the next 50 years. And often those parts are bought from the son of the guy that sold you the Jap bike 50 years ago.

I will not pay $2k+ for any China bike that has zero dealer support or service, and NO, a telephone number is not a service department!

There comes a time when you have to decide if you are going to keep engaging in an activity and investing in better gear. It is the same in almost every sport.

But stop with the criticism of the "exotic and expensive Jap bikes" when they are neither. They are the very essence of getting what you pay for, but so are the China bikes.

After reading this I must ask why you joined this site?
Seems like you hate Chinese motorcycles. Do you or have you owned one?

[JerryHawk250]

SSR has a few options on 25+ HP bikes. http://www.ssrmotorsports.com/store/...bike-index.php

[severely]

Originally Posted by tknj99

I agree with severely on this.. i did alot of research on these Chinese bikes before purchase of the Brozz and you can read all about these CG 250 bikes being sold, beaten up and still going strong after many miles/years in 3rd world countries. That added to the fact they are a clone of a bulletproof Honda engine sealed the deal for me. Now perhaps other elements may not last a decade, ie. switches/electrical and other small parts, but the beauty lies in the fact that they are readily available and cheap to find on Amazon/Ebay if/when needed as well as easy to work on and fix yourself.
Also, yes, no dealer network can be tough, but i consider this forum to be all the dealer network you need to guide you in the right direction and help should any issues arise.
Now, my feelings do change, however, when it comes to going beyond the 2k mark. I did buy and later sell an RX4 and although there was great dealer support thru CSC, when it came to aftermarket support there was none for things such as piggy-back fuel controller, ecu tune, etc. Things that are commonplace for Jap/Euro bikes. That is also why i steer people towards the carb version and more simplistic nature of that variant when deciding between FI and carb for a Chinese bike. perhaps the aftermarket may increase in the future but its probably a long way off.

I agree and would add there is a significant portion of the riding population who enjoy tinkering with their bikes. Kinda similar to HD riders in that almost anything you do improves the bikes performance [carbs, jetting, suspension, etc]. Nothing really beats the ZEN when you make a successful mod to your bike and go for a ride.

[China Rider 27]

Originally Posted by JerryHawk250

SSR has a few options on 25+ HP bikes. http://www.ssrmotorsports.com/store/...bike-index.php

If only they were dual sport and street licensable they would warrant a good look. That's why it seems like it is an EPA approval issue/cost issue. And we see the spectre of the "destination charge" arise in the total cost. Somebody has to break through I do believe but who and when?

[Thumper]

Originally Posted by China Rider 27

If only they were dual sport and street licensable they would warrant a good look. That's why it seems like it is an EPA approval issue/cost issue. And we see the spectre of the "destination charge" arise in the total cost. Somebody has to break through I do believe but who and when?

I see that they are maybe 70% the price of comparable KTM, etc. Cycle World praises the performance, so that's great for a dedicated off road dirt bike. But as you say, not street legal, and these are not oriented towards dual sport. If they had a battery, lights and a horn, DOT tires the $4000 price would be just a little more than I would want to pay, but it looks like these are MUCH more capable than the Storm or TBR7.

And what's an ocean freight surcharge?

[tknj99]

Have a good look at the XPro Titan DLX - about 19hp - street legal dual sport (a bit more dirt oriented) - overhead cam CB engine and 30-40 pounds lighter than the Hawk/TBR/Brozz. and a steal at $1800 delivered