Fuel Injection for Zongshen 200 CG
 

Hi guys, It’s been a while again! Plans went very wrong last year when the bottom fell out of my overtime, the sidecar rebuild project along with racing in general went out the window. The Zongshen 200 powered outfit has been getting a lot of love over past months though and not having the money to go racing anyway has given me plenty of thinking time to consider a lot of aspects and ergonomic practicalities of how we will operate in the field (not a ploughed field obviously). I’ll get a thread up in the next few days.

As work continues I am still trying to decide what to do with the carb. I’ve moved the motor forward and tilted it forward as much as I can but I’m now seated further forward too so the problem of me laying on the carb is still present. It basically wont fit in the space available or it gets choked or blocked off if I move it elsewhere.

I did eventually get hold of this adjustable CDI unit as per recommendations from Humanbeing. I never got as far as trying to work out how to wire it up though but as it happens I may not need it now because…………………………..

I came across this nice little Fuel injection system on Taobao

http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=...&id=1973544318

It would seem these people are paying quite a lot of attention to getting the details right and want to know the engine type, size and model plus intended use. This makes me think they may know what they are doing and could this be the answer to my problems? It could be mounted at any angle and I’d be able to get it in the space available and feed it from a pressurised airbox. The ECU seems to be quite clever (or so they say) self-learning and setting up via computer, tab, phone via Bluetooth! I see there is a normal looking CDI box in the kit but don’t know if the ECU replaces the need to have the an adjustable CDI?
So does anyone have any experience of this or similar EFI systems they could advise me on? I am puzzled how it gets the mixture right, could it just be worked out from head temp and airflow meter? They say you don’t need to run the Lamda sensor if not on the road.

They also have this oil cooler set up which looks neat and tidy, same as above, anyone with any experience?

If I use TB trends to buy this thing it’s going to be a bit of a gamble that they translate all the right information over to the seller so I get the right bits don’t you think?

Ah, just found this so will have a read - http://www.chinariders.net/showthrea...fuel+injection

You found Ron's thread before I could point to it. He's the man.

What was your final cost on the programmable CDI?

Hi Weld

Well I've had a read through that and currently digesting.

To be honest I forget what I paid for the adjustable CDI but something like 65GBP all in rings a bell. It feels like a nice quality bit of kit but hadn't figured out what I needed to do to get it working. Now I will have a proper look into this EFI system as a preference.

Does your CDI have a USB connection? Did it come with software?

Yes and yes. I'll get some snaps. Its dc not ac so that would need accommodating.

From what I can tell you can have a laptop plugged in whilst running. You configure it via lap top as opposed to an adjuster screw or similar.

Some of this may mean something to you. There's a lot of things I dont understand about all this jiggery pokery but very keen to learn, I get the basics but can easily find myself a bit lost.

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Our good friend Humanbeing would be the best source of knowledge.

Well I'm now on my way to getting this EFI system built and tailored for my needs :thanks: to Recracer and Mr. YX Yang from FAI. To be honest dealing with my new Chinese friend is easier than dealing with your average company in the uk. The uk sucks on many levels :grr:

I'm looking forward to many details. Please overload us with tech.

X2 on both counts. :tup:

I am signed up . Should be an interesting project .

Well I can try but must admit that when it comes to electrickery I need to try hard to keep up.

The main thing that seems to differ from what Recracer has is that my fuel tank is/going to be on the floor and I cant come straight out the back of the engine with the manifold/throttle body.

Mr Yang has suggested I use components from the scooter set up they do. My fairing/centre console is just behind the engine, pretty much about where the mouth of the carb would have been, could of cut a hole in the fairing but then I would have been laying on it and blanking it off hence the need for something different.

The scoot motors cylinder lays flat so needs a bent manifold to bring the carb etc back to level, the EFI system needs fill the same space so it too has a 45deg(ish) bend in the manifold and has the injector nozzle mounted right at the engine flange end pointing straight down at the inlet valve. If the injector was mounted on the straight piece of tube beside the throttle body the spray would of had to go up the venturi and round the bend before entering the engine, this is not so good says MR Yang.

In addition the plumbing is much easier for me to set up in my situation. On Rons bike he has the vapour separator and filter mounted into the bottom of the tank where as on my system these parts will be separate so can be mounted where convenient. With my tank being on the deck I will need to pump the fuel up, was going to use a header tank for gravity feed but with the scooter set up Mr Yang thinks I can use my pump connected straight to the EFI system as its a very low pressure pump designed to be connected straight to a carb.

I've got some diagrams but think I should seek permission before posting them up.

Gotta run now.......

Laters

Sorry for the lack of updates guys, been talking with Mr Yang from FAI every day for what seems like ages now. I havent got it all sewn up yet but almost there now.

I'm in full on panic mode trying to get the sidecar + four race bikes for the kids ready for the season opener in March so spending every last minute researching parts on the internet or building stuff in the freezing workshop which is hovering at about 6.5 deg C just now and yes I am using a heater too!

The EFI system it's self is all wrapped up I think. We then got talking about the flywheel timing and I thought it may be worth asking if FAI sell modified flywheels. They said they would be happy to sort one out and machine it to send with the rest of the system but needed to confirm what was on my engine. Although there are loads of units on Taobao that look similar Mr yang was preferring to get an OE part from Zongshen directly. They don’t make parts for my engine anymore apparently, its about 7 – 8 years old I think. So without me wanting to get involved with time consuming discussions with TB traders trying to work out if all those other CG flywheels on there are the same or not, I told Mr Yang to hold fire if he wasn’t confident he could lay his hands on the right part without too much greif. This was because by this time we had got onto talking about the AC DC thing. After a nice chat about what our favourite ACDC tune was (yes yes just kidding) it became apparent that I would need to convert the Zonger to DC for the EFI system and he wasn’t sure the currently available Zong parts would fit. I thought it best to leave the poor guy alone regarding all these complications for a bit although he doesn’t seem to mind my constant questions and I had already mentioned my other plan to him anyway………..

New plan, I wanted to get another motor, what I want is the KTM220 Duke lump but this inst going to happen anytime soon so I was tending towards getting another china engine to have a play with and then keep the old Zonger as a spare. I can gather dc conversion parts for it as I go. Then the idea is to get a flywheel for the new engine sent to FAI. This will save me some precious time.

So the new candidate is this little beauty. Haoyue 190.........

http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=...id=12499971385

It comes with a counter balance and non counter balance shaft option. The difference being the large growth hanging off the front and messing up the lower mount position. So my quandary is do I go for the balance shaft version or not? Will it help me in my situation? Lots of hard thrashing that is! Will it sap power or will it's extra smooth and loveliness let the engine wind up better? Hmm. I'm thinking to go for the non BS mainly to allow quick engine changes on the same mounts as the CG. What y'all think?

I agree; installation challenges and parasitic power losses would result from the counter-balanced engine.

Mr. Humanbeing has the DC thing all figured out.

This is who/what I use
 

CHEAP, will help develop applications if he sees potential sales worth it, and the taobao MAY be him. What is USD pricing? He sells HERE for 300.00! Many Kaw Ninja 250's use this to GREAT effect (and economy.) Only thing is engine piston size, must be small enough for one of his efi tb's to feed enough a/f to develop full power.
ecotrons
http://www.ecotrons.com/products/sma...injection_kit/
Matt, I think is who I talked and worked with...This is the same turbo the 250 Yamaha kit uses, by the way. Makes my golf cart HAUL ASSS!
Kawasaki 13hp stock, carbed. Now EFI'ed.
It has the self learning ecu/o2 available, and it works as advertised in MY application.
Nice, no BS humble guy to do business with also. With him, its always been what I say/print, is what you get (or more).
Reccomended.

Thats interesting. it's a different set up for sure but very similar in most respects. The website is pretty good. I'm talking to a company called FAI and the seller on TB also sells another injection system. The TB seller is not the manufacturer, I am currently waiting for the results of communication between the seller on TB and my guy at FAI. The price is comparable to the ecotrons system.

Well sorry for disappearing again, been going round in circles for a while and time is getting ever shorter so I've been in the workshop mostly, well not counting the continuous onslaught of emails and messages about this and many other items I'm dealing with.

We ended up just needing to get hold of flywheels for two engines, my Zong 200 and the intended successor the Haoyue 190, I got to the point of having all my Taobao items decided upon and as it happens the seller 'friends of mount world' (I think) of the efi system also sells these engines and all the other parts I wanted including what I am pretty sure is the right parts to convert my zong to DC. The Haoyue engine is already DC. Obviously I'm not getting my efi system from this seller as I'm now talking to the manufacturer directly.

So the day (2nd Feb) I go on Taobaotrends to put the order in I see a notice telling me its Chinese new year soon and they will be on hols from something like 6th Feb to 28th Feb and any orders to be sent before then should be put in before Febuary! Oh nice two days too late then :ohno:

So I put the order in and tried to get some answers to questions before they buggered off. Mainly I needed to know if the supplier of the Haoyue engine was able to supply a second flywheel, this would be shipped to FAI for them to mod whilst the engine was making its way over with the other bits. Hopefully by the time the efi and flywheel arrive I have the rest of the outfit ready to receive them.

The idea is to run the Haoyue engine and keep the Zong as a spare.

Had loads of confusion with tbtrends on the flywheel issue and now it looks like good old Mr Yang is going to try and rescue me by talking to the engine supplier himself. This guy is a top dude, I say "thank you Mr Yang" and he says "thank 'you', you are my customer". :clap:

The saga goes on, Mr Yang is in india for a couple of days, I should ask him to pop in on the nice people at the factory that are hand crafting my kids race suits for this season....... oh how the money just flies out the door :ohno:

The Chinese New Year has hamstrung a few of us.

Very glad to hear about the excellent customer service you're receiving, and I'm looking forward to seeing all of the bits in action. Why a 190cc instead of 200cc?

Yes customer service is outstanding Weld. The company I'm getting my kids leather race suits from in India seems extremely good too, here in Lazy England not many can be arsed with customer service, I try to support and spread the word whenever I come across a good company here in the UK, they are few and far between and need to be acknowledged.

I'm pretty sure I will miss the first meeting now though need a magic wand!

The haoyue engine only comes as a 170, 190 or 230cc. From what I can tell the 190 makes more power than the 200 OHC engines that are older technology. It should be more tune-able than the pushrod Zong also. It has higher comp ratio, carbon clutch etc, been built for hard MX racing and seems to have a good following. Shame there isnt a 200 though.

The 190 is OHC?

Yes, maybe one of you guys with more road bike experience than me can recognize what this engine is based on?

http://gd1.alicdn.com/imgextra/i1/25...!!25665657.jpg

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Suzuki 125 by any chance?

http://pictures.topspeed.com/IMG/cro...m-3_800x0w.jpg

That engine is made by 天钇 http://www.tyanmotor.com/
http://www.motorfans.com.cn/bbs/t_17868484.htm

Thank you Humanbeing. I have found different sellers on TB all selling what looks like this engine but each time I find one the branding/logo is different. The only common name that I see on many adverts is Haoyue. Haoyue-bright moon, haoyue-BSE, Haoyue-Mojo etc etc. The version I have posted a link for above is being marketed I think as a race/higher performance engine than most. They talk of carbon clutch, higher compression ration (10.2:1) etc. The performance figures quoted are better than most other engines including the link you have provided.

Do you think it possible that the engines are all built by the company you have linked above and then re-branded by sellers. Also I hope that this could be true and that this 'bright moon' engine has been upgraded by the supplier to a higher specification? I hope so anyway!

At least I should be able to see if the tyanmotor company can supply a flywheel.

To me, it looks like a CB200 with a fancy valve cover. The clutch linkage, sight glass and dipstick location are the same.

There's a link to a thread about this motor in the add. The thread is huge and impossible to navigate to points of interest using translation due to the use of slang etc. From what I remember though I think they are saying the bottom end is strong because it's the same as a cg/cb bottom end and proven technology. It has a little opening in the front of the cylinder to cool the exhaust valve, how quaint!

I was thinking the same thing.

I hadn't spotted that; seems like a good idea.

You showed us pics of a counterbalanced version, and then a non-CB version in a bike. Which version are you getting?

My intension was to order the non counter balance version, the ad only shows the counter balance even though they list an option without it. I had to pinch the picture of the 'non' version from another sellers ad.

Unfortunately though today I have received information that the 'bright moon' version I was trying to buy is not available.

So now I'm back at square one again. I need to choose another sub 200cc engine. As said there are others selling what looks like the same engine and theres humabeings links to explore as well. Would love to know if this version I was try to buy was actually uprated and by who? Or is it just BS?

Any recommendations greatfully received..........

Well I've been surching around endlessly trying to find engines with quoted specs. They all seem much of a muchness! The CB engines seemed to be no better than the CG's on average. The exception being these suzuki/honda hybrid things. I talked with Mr Yang from FAI, he told me to go for a genuine Zongshen or Loncin which are superior quality to many other makes, he then pointed me at a genuine zong cg and explained that the Chinese cb engines do not offer the expected gains from pushrod layout because they are cammed/ported for chugging heavy loads away from constant stopping and at that they are never as good as a cg down low. Interesting comments.

I was all set on a water cooled zong cg from the same seller as the a/c one Mr yang showed me (it's a bit more pokey) then I stumbled upon another seller with one of these upgraded Haoyue/ty/suzuki/honda lumps. I don't know if they are the real deal or just bog standard ones though.

What do you make of this..........
http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=...id=21943948574

Oh yes forgot to say, in humanbeings link to the forum thread above I can't quite work out what they are saying and what they are laughing at. Can anyone translate slang?

The counterbalancer is a parasitic power loss; are you sure you want that for racing?

Nary a clue, but it does seem like they are acknowledging the Suzi/CG hybrid theory.

Most of the ads for these engines show the counterbalance in the pics but also do a 'non' version which is the one I would order. They say its in stock @CNY2180 but cant supply a flywheel to Mr Yang. They reckon the motor is 16KW which seems very far fetched. *There's another seller with similar goods and quoting 16KW for the 230. http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=...0-7ce0d892222a I think it quite likely that these sellers are full of shit but I just cant tell? It would only need to be making 12KW+ to be up on the standard China engines and if it lasted a year or two that would be fine. Mr Yang is still saying to go for the Zong and is suspicious of the Haoyue it would seem. He is concerned about the quality and durability.

*EDIT Both those motors are the same seller which means he is contradicting himself about the 16KW which is being applied to both 190 and 230 engines.

Being sensible I feel the W/C Zong is the safe option and Mr yang would have a flywheel sorted for it and shipped before the engine arrived here.

I dont mind taking the odd risk though so I'm still tempted by the Haoyue (knowing that it will potentially be a disaster).

What to do??????

Stupid me is sitting here wanting to buy both Doh :doh: I am known for stupidity though so...........

As an enabler, I say buy both!

Been counting my beans and doing my sums but I cant see any way of sensibly owning both and still buying the rest of the stuff I need.

I have told Mr Yang to go get a flywheel for a new Zong water cooled..... quality, durability and all that, however Now I'm thinking that I dont really need a lot of durability do I? I mean, I'm doing about 500 miles per year, it would take two years just to run it in!!!!!! which reminds me that I need to get round that problem too.

Ho Hum, I'm less sure than ever that I'm going in the right direction right now. Mr yang has contacted the seller of the genuine Zongshen w/c CG200. All in stock inc flywheels yay, but, I asked him to find out at the same time if this motor is AC or DC, answer AC... boooo!! Quite a few of the china motors are DC now as per the EFI system so thats a shame. He then goes on to say

"they said the ignition is AC but if you use DC CDI, what you need to do is not connect the ignition coil output, which also we generally did. The magneto has 11 electricity generating coils + 1 ignition coil. That is enough for electricity generation for the EFI system"

So now he's saying I dont need to convert AC to DC, just not connect 1 wire to 1 coil on the stator but use the rest or have I got that wrong do you think? Am I then using 11 coils to generate power which will be sufficient to charge the battery in order to run the EFI, fuel pump and starter motor, or is he mentioning "enough for electricty generation for the EFI" because thats all its going to be enough for and nothing else??

I dont think I fully understand how the magneto works but anyway the DC one I ordered for the air cooled Zong should fit this new one I reckon.

I think at the moment I'm resigned to ordering the water cooled Zong and will forever be left wondering what if the suzuki type clone would have worked out like given that its put together by some companies in a motoX spec in a higher state of tune (allegedly). I have a feeling the EFI may have struggled to feed an engine with 10 or 20% more power anyway.

Perhaps the Suzuki hybrid will be in your future, some day. You'll then have the answer to your burning questions.

I would certainly just install a DC stator, and Humanbeing is likely the most knowledgeable about that.