Do you agree with Crazy Carl?
 

CrazyCarl suggested a contest to replace the 'China Riders' image at the top of the page. I don't normally post PM's but frankly I this one really cheesed me off.

So, honest opinions please. If I'm doing the community a disservice, please let me know. No repercusions - in the history of chinariders.net I've only deleted 2 accounts. Disagreeing with me is not grounds for dismissal.

BTW - I am aware chinariders.net is hardly the pinnacle of web design. My issue with this message is not the idea that chinariders.net is in need of a facelift or the concept of a 'banner contest', it's the derogatory and preechy tone of the message. Every hear the old adage, "You get more flies with honey than vinegar" .

Thanks,

Frostbite

Site Administrator, Dictator, and Clip-Art rapist

Looks OK 2 me.

I care more about the useful info and hanging out than a fashion statement!

Although I do think that the current one looks okay, it does make the site appear to be a bit "amateur."

Now, don't get me wrong...there's absolutely nothing wrong at all with the site being amateur...

But what you have to ask yourself Frost is WHERE you want the site to go. If you're okay leaving it as a small close knit community (which it appears to be from my short time here) then I would say leave it exactly as it is.

However, if you have dreams of the site becoming bigger and more popular, you may want to entertain the idea of putting something different up there.

I personally like the layout of the site...in a strange way I enjoy the "bare bones-ness" of it all. I am a member of a VERY large sportbike community and have been for many years. I love posting there, but to be honest some of the "features" that they have added over the years have seemed to do nothing but clutter the site in my opinion...it's refreshing to come to a site like this that is a bit smaller and a bit more basic. It's actually kinda like the China bikes...not really flashy, fairly basic, but they work if you care to make them work!!!

In closing, keep up the great work Frost. I know personally how difficult it can be to keep up a website. I maintained and paid for an import auto webiste for several years back in about 2000...and it was NOT a very fun thing to do.

I'm a network adminstrator, software developer by trade. A 'web developer' and master of photoshop I am not. The site you see is a standard php-nuke them with a couple of minor tweaks.

It may not be pretty, but it's always running. :)

We currently get ~1million hits a month. ~12K page views per day.

At one million hits per month, I'd say that the site needs to stay just about the way that it is.

There's no reason to fret over something like graphics if you're happy with the way the site is.

And I agree...I will take a site that is up and running 100% of the time over a site that is running 50% of the time but has some flashy pictures.

To me honestly it doesn't matter...

I come here for the information, discussion, and community...

I do agree with your statement :

And I am replying to that, as a whole, and not just the image at the top (which I am assuming is just the stylized text China Riders, if there is something else I am not seeing then correct me please)

I blame this on the use of a generic CMS... I think there are 2 main features here at China Riders, the forum, and the imager gallery... I don't feel a complete cms is really necessary.

The rest isn't something I think is used often... News is on the home page is rarely updated, and as such I never go to the home page... I don't think that you need to be constantly updating it though. I think the best would be to make the forum the home page. With a custom header with the links to the gallery, frappr, and the "swag" section, which could use some more items ;).

I think there could be a separate forum category for downloads such as the user manuals, parts manuals, and tech info print outs.

The your account link on the top doesn't make a lot of sense because that doesn't affect forum profiles. Submit news I'm guessing is also rarely used and I don't know that it needs to be there.

My opinion would be it would be best to make the home page of the site the forum, and have links in the custom page header to the home page (forum), gallery, swag, and frappr. The custom page header could have a new logo if one was created...

I have experience with phpBB and as such would never choose to use it myself. If I was to update the site with the suggestions I've mentioned I would swap it over to a SMF based forum, and convert the existing forum database so posts aren't lost. I would give the forum and the gallery the same page header, and create a page for the frappr link so it doesn't just leave the site, but maybe opens the frappr part in a frame under the page header.

These are just my ideas, and I don't expect them to be implemented as we aren't paying you for this, and I am sure that the rest of the members would agree with me that we appreciate the site how it is, thanks :)

I don't really look at it but i would not be against updating it.Don't know if i would recommend a contest but if you posted a couple of options i would vote .

You can replace the header graphic or not replace it this would not matter to me, I come around for the information and to see what is going with everyone.

I am more interested in the data I find here I suppose.

I like it the way it is :!:

Chrome don't get ya home.
Simple is better.
Content over looks.

Kinda why I bought Chinese.

What logo. To be honest,why would anyone care what the logo looks like?
This a forum for information.Your not selling anything.And who do you need to impress?We are riding and buying 1200. bikes.Don't need a 1000,000 site.
This is perfect to me the way it is.By the way Its a good thread to say thank you.

There's a logo?

I don't pay attention to much design stuff or looks. I care that I get the info I need.

Its your site. Do what you like. I do like the faster server. That's more important than the design of the logo.

Allen

Logo? I go straight to view new posts and all is good in the world for me, I wouldn't change a thing...

One of my other sites,

http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/index.php

Over 50,000 members, I don't think the banner made that happen....

Whoa! Deja Vu!
 

Once again: "I see, said the blind man."

So much for "Asking in an unbiased manner". Ask a pointed question to get responses like "It doesn't matter what it looks like." Well that's a little different from the long list of demands people expect from their motorcycles and I'm a little confused as to why the sudden difference: one minute demanding consumers and the next minute something else.

Could someone please explain how a banner change would decrease the quality of the content?

The question I'm asking is what if a site could could have a better interface AND more (good) information AND support/attract a larger community? Then what? How would these things happen without some changes? If people want six speed transmissions, bigger engines and proper repair manuals, then the community is going to have to grow and mature - not "sometime" but now.

It needs a larger body of people working together. Many here are aware that none of this happens in theoretical land it takes hard work and constant innovation - which is, btw, the same thing we ask from manufacturers.

If you know it's not the best you can do then why not change it? What, if any, plans do you have to improve the site? You're the administrator so you're the only one who can do it and also why aren't there any other moderators? I can't see a reason why I should have to "honey" up anything and I'm not even sure that would make a difference. I know it sounds preachy and derogatory but at root it's honesty...personal and direct honesty. You may not like or even understand it but this is how my friends and family deal with me, and this is how I deal with them. We call it "hard love" and it's what I've learned on the road.

The response PM:
I think you have a funny sense of "discussion" but at least your last point makes some sense. The industry moves fast and there's need for changes - not next year or never - but weekly and monthly. This is about passion and wanting to take a major part in something we all enjoy.

I am aware that levels of interest and commitment in this field will vary but if the man in charge isn't prepared or willing to be "pro-active", then like I said in the PM, they should be ready to be replaced because as competition has it, someone will.

Just calling it as I see it folks - flame it if you want to. The wheels are turning and I want to be ready to move with possible benefits for everybody. A banner change is just one tiny part of what I perceive to be a bigger picture. There's more...

Crazy "Blind Man" Carl

True enough Carl...But my thought is get the content right , in a package that works and is easy to maintain.

I look for a good working "tool"
We don't really "need" flashy graphics to have a good site.

Most guys like to get rid of the big 5 on the front of their bikes...remove the GAUDY flames, Manufactures name written in 1990's neon colors, and other decals that do nothing but look bad.... why have them on the site???

However a new look (good design and quality workmanship), just like newly designed plastic, is welcome if the increase in quality does not come with added cost...Money or bandwith or load times etc. etc.

I hope my analogy between china riders and china rides is clear enough to understand my point of view...for what ever it may be worth... :roll:

Where did "Flashy graphics" come from? Why is there the instant assumption it's going to be hopelessly gaudy?

Regardless, it really doesn't matter because this is certainly the last time I'll suggest anything for this site: it can stay as unchanged as it wants until the end of time. But there is one last thing...which I hope should interest everyone...

Because I see a consistent lack of answers to important questions, how about an official reply from the man in charge to Gimpdiggity's fine point:

WHERE do you want this web-site to go Frostbite? What is your plan?

CC

Seems it is right where we want it to be to me, change for the sake of change is pointless.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it :!:

Gimp dig "I personally like the layout of the site...in a strange way I enjoy the "bare bones-ness" of it all. I am a member of a VERY large sportbike community and have been for many years. I love posting there, but to be honest some of the "features" that they have added over the years have seemed to do nothing but clutter the site in my opinion...it's refreshing to come to a site like this that is a bit smaller and a bit more basic. It's actually kinda like the China bikes...not really flashy, fairly basic, but they work if you care to make them work!!! "

I agree.

I ain't pissed or down on your ideas C.C. ..I value your opinions as you seem to be a genuine and knowledgable person ...and good member on this forum... If Frosty wants to Stylize the site more or less, it would not really make a difference for me.Up to him.
However I have been on a couple of REALLY GOOD GRASSROOTS FORUMS that have went/grown Huge and went more corporate...Sponsors and such and flashy doodads that bog down my SLOW high speed connection...and Now the guys I used to talk with are Moderators and only have time to monitor posts..issue warnings...not much personal posts at all...and the policing is tight because of the sponsorships provided and a stipulation to LIMIT CONTENT.
So I don't see a need to try to get bigger unless Frosty wants a lucrative Chinariders E-mpire... build it and they will come...we are here!

K.I.S.S. :wink:

I've checked out other sites, they have so much flash crap going on that after looking thru 13 pages of a forum my pc freezes! Yeah, my pc sucks.

Like how in here anybody can say the stoopidest/most brilliant things they wish. And nobody's trying to convince you to buy anything, except other riders.

I don't think Frostbite should do anything he doesn't WANT to do. Already a tremendous service to the members and non-members alike.

The only thing I wish there was:
Stickys for links to dealers and drop-shippers sorted by manufacturer. Ya want a Shineray? Go here. What ya want is also called a Quinqi? It's under here. Then there'd be alot less bait-and-switch hassle and research for us noobs!

KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK!!!!!

Hey, CrazyCarl....ever considered starting your own site? You know...the "right way"?

No forum is gonna be perfect and even on any of the dozen or so others I belong to, questions get overlooked...

To be honest, I don't think that far ahead. I have some plans for this summer, but these will unfold in due course.

Honestly, I think this is a great site but I don't see anyone shelling out a bunch of cash or buying much swag to revamp the site, as far as I know this is all coming out of Frostbites pocket except for a few sponsers...
If you'd really like to expand the site, why not everyone chip in a few bucks??? Maybe C.C. a portion of your video sales could go towards improving the site and letting the people interested and owners of China bikes know what is going on and how much support is needed to get the products we want and need here in N.A. and Canada?...
This is a great community of bikers,(Not all Chinese brands) but I don't think we want another TTalk forum here, I like that my kids can sit here with me and enjoy the education from motorcycle riders and learn about bikes... Frostbite, I read the forums everyday, if you need a Moderator I would gladly offer my time and some cash...

I doubt Carl wanted to offend anyone with the suggestion, He has posted some very good information and helped us undestand the Chinese end of this a little more also...But on topic, I like the site...It's simple. If it was a site for teens it would need more flash but were all prety much an "older' crowd. We want simple and easy to read :lol: I think the people of this site make it a good site. No amount of decoration can make up for bad members (see Thumpertalk). For the most part nobody is trashing anyone else here..And nobody bad mouths anyones ride. So I feel it is fine the way it is.

first off i love the site.

i will admit, thinking back, the first time i was here i thought it sucked.

partly because of the logo but mainly because i found it difficult to navigate. just being totally honest.

but then culcune pointed me to a link here and i decided to join. now that i am here and have posted a few posts, the ease of posting and just setting up my acct was incredible. for instance at adv rider i had to search the web to find out what kinda bike steve mqueen rode in some movie. i watched the movie but the only way you would know the answer to the question is to find someone with the answer.

no forum i have used, thumper talk (talk about an annoying layout), adv rider or supermotojunkie (but i do like those sites too) have the ease of use this one does. my opinion now but not originally.

although the logo has grown on me, remembering my first impression compelled me to reply. i honestly like the china style letters. maybe you could add something like "1 million hits a month" underneath china riders in smaller letters so that it does not appear to be a site that is out of date. not for us people who are addicted to the site now but to carls point to attract new users as they will be inclined to dig a little deeper.

i honestly had NO idea that this site had that many hits. amazing.

the colors and simplicity of use are very attractive.

put the search tab on the home page. again something that would have helped me when i first clicked on the site.

and on a side note. make some smaller stickers. i cant put a bumper sticker on my motorcycle. no bumper! lol. i am grateful to have a site like this to talk about my new chinese sumo without negativity from haters.

thank you frostbite for your initiative to put this together for us.

.

FREE CRAZY CARL, FREE CRAZY CARL....... :lol:

one million hits are mine. :lol:

My thoughts...

I appreciate the fact that this site is available, the effort Frostbite must put into keeping it available, and all the great people who post and share information, making this the best place I have found on this subject.

I think it's easy for some to confuse 1 million hits with 1 million unique viewers. A hit is counted every time a page is refreshed. Not to imply this site is any less popular, or that it matters....I just think it can be misleading. 1 million hits is still impressive....and along these lines, I notice the 1000th user is about to register here. Very nice! :)

I too wish the main index page made it a bit easier to locate the various forums. I simply bookmarked the forum page to help my navigation, but I imagine there's always a few new viewers who will have a little more trouble.

On the logo image...the only change I'd make personally, is to add "network" to the end, to help brand this domain extension since it isn't the more common .com domain. I know someone was posting links to the .com site as a joke...but for the less web savy, looking at a page that says "China Riders Network" instead of "China Riders" could be the difference in returning to this site or settling elsewhere.


Like most, I'll take the quality content any way it comes. Looking good is nice, but it's secondary....and IMO, should remain secondary. If you can accomplish both, that's great, but if there's a chnace it'll detract from the core purpose of the site...no thanks.

I like the site the way it is.... Simple, effective and full of information. It accesses data very fast and I like the layout. Good job Frosty.... 8)

I love the site!!!! Its the information and the common interests that we all share that makes the site what it is! My hats off to Frostbite for putting it together and allowing us the opportunity to enjoy it. Thanks Frostbite!!!! Job well done! :D

With all the changes... going on constantly, in life and especially the computing world... Its always refreshing and re-assuring, that I can click on my Favorites column and get what I have become accustomed to here.

Personally, I like the existing Logo...

NET

hey Frosty
just because Carl's been around the world does'nt meen you need to change your site, its good enough. thanx for letin us come on here
DD

I wasn't trying to put the site down, I'm just saying, who reads the Home page, I never visit it. Never.

Heck, lets just go back to hypertext and ANSI artwork! I'm sure I still have a copy of WILDCAT! BBS somewhere on a 5.25 floppy that I can donate, I might even remember how to set it up!.... betcha' I can do a mean looking China Riders ANSI logo! ;)


To answer the question though. The site is fine as it is. The look is a bit plain(which I prefer), and it functions well.

LOGO? :?
If constant change was needed to increase membership, that's one thing. But as is, the site is growing, more members=more info.

How many existing members would pay a registration fee to pay for constant updates? I think membership would go way down, not up. :?
We ride cheap bikes, that's who we are. I complain about gas going up another 10 cents. If Bill Gates starts donating cash to chinariders it will look like Honda's main page.

I'm on dial-up. My computer takes one look at Honda's main page and has a nervous breakdown :cry: . Simple is best for me. I'm sure that simple is best for the people taking care of this site. The forum page is where I enter.
Play nice/Ride hard/Pass on your knowledge. :wink:

I come here for the content. Good people, and lots of good, usable tips. No need for complicated extras, in my opinion. Keep up the good work Frostbite! :D

I have to say that I love it here, and you guys are the best to dish "smack" around (okay, not all smack all the time). I am the only one to say, and I will get flack for it, that this site could look a little better. I do agree with Carl on many points and levels.

Not that anyone could really help it, but the ongoing hijinks between two members, had made a mockery of the entire site and Chinese bikes in general (okay, this is a joke, we all know that SunL and grey-import Lifans really are responsible for this), but the arguing was annoying. Then the bans, and everything is getting back together now, and all is good once again on Chinariders!!

However, Crazy Carl, the wild and crazy guy he is (I know, Steve Martin really is) has started his own forum site. Competition!!?? (like there's money being made) Actually there is room for both these sites...as most of you know, unless you are brain dead, or simply distracted by Porterz vs. Hillbilly, Carl is in China, made a movie riding a Chinese 150 enduro in China, posed for the Aerostich catalog in front of some huge, snowy mountains in China, with the same 150cc enduro, and bought a new Qingqi QM200GY; yep you guessed it........in China.

'Supersignet' is also based in China and continuously teases us with photos in exotic Chinese places with his camouflage bike that we drool over.

There are a few other members, including one guy who runs a Chang-Jiang store in Beijing.

So, while Chinariders.net has given a perspective from mostly US points of view regarding Chinese bikes, with a small but loyal Canadian membership providing a (sometimes different) view (different as in Coast to Coast vs. A. Lifan, GY-6's to taunt and tease us with to our GY-5's, etc) with a smattering of international (read=not from N. America) members and posts, Carl's new site is written by people posting from the motherland of Chinese bikes.

I won't give out the name, unless I hear the okay from Frostbite (it is really easy to find if you do a little detective work on these hallowed threads) but again, I really think that there is plenty of room for both Chinariders.net and "the site that Carl started."

http://mychinamoto.com

That's a pretty site.
But, that's not the reason I like this site.

I can't remember the problem I was having with my chinabike(it's fixed now). I posted that I need help here and within the hour I had 3 people discribing how to fix the problem. I can't get that kind of help at my local bike shop at the top of my street. They'll fix it and charge ya, but they won't help you to fix it yourself. I have to pay 35$ to join the Canadian Vintage Motorcycle Group to get the password for their site. Others there have asked questions and get no help, for over a year?

The kind of help, discussion, language, abuse, teasing on other sites aren't what a newb like me is looking for, especially the bigger sites. I just want to know how to fix my bike, for that help I feel obligated to help those newer than me. I don't care if it's done by E-mail. (I have Email riders in a group doing just that.)

Sorry, JMHO. I'll shut up now, when I type too much my newness can be blinding. :x

Change is good, but not the hurried kind, slow thought out improvements on a great running machine. And as for that other site, just remember them as "the other site."