Moto Cult
 

So I found this site selling upgrade kits for many of the Chinese bikes. They claim to actually do dyno testing to show the improvement to expect. They also have good tutorial videos showing how to install.

I did a search and found no mention of them here on the forums. Does anybody have any experience with this company?

I have a Hawk 250 and am thinking about doing the basic kit... mostly for fun.

https://motocultparts.com/collection...s-ready?page=1

They are legit. I have their big bore cylinder and head that I recently bought to replace my self ported head and standard bore cylinder. The cams they sell are the three WGK cam grinds sold out of Brazil, the 292 being the same cam I bought for my bike years ago.

The owner of MotoCult is actually a former engineer for Janus cycles, and he started by offering these parts for those bikes. it just so happens that they use the same old CG250 as many of these Chinese dual sports, so it works for our bikes too.

The dyno figures are legit as well. A fun side note about those dyno numbers too, they were recorded using a stock style PZ30 carb, not some big bore or smooth bore carb so many like to run.

Nothing against the kit or the tinkering aspect as i've done my fair share of experiments.

But be aware a 172fmm-3 non balanced 5 speed and 172fmm-5 balanced 6 speed engines are about the same price as that kit at least for the USA domestic market.

Are these direct bolt in compatible?

Agreed... but I can't stop buying upgrades for the hawk... it's a problem.

Every time I go down the counterbalanced 6 speed rabbit hole I always come to the conclusion that I might as well just get a Templar X... but that would start the whole upgrade thing all over!

I'm thinking of just going for the "Stage 1 Performance Package." That would be 2hp for $100... which sounds reasonable for a 10%+ increase in power. And it would be a fun project.

I've seen this claim before, and no, sorry, it won't cost the same. It ends up being more expensive, for no gain in power over the CG. The balancer and the extra gear are nice to be sure, but it's not cheaper.

It definitely isn't easier either. A member of the Hawk page on facebook is doing said swap and discovered that, just like the RE250 engine, the front needs a little clearancing and the motor mounts aren't quite the same so some fab work is involved.

Then, there are all of the wiring changes that need done too.

None of this is hard if you know what you are doing, but most people aren't up for that kind of work.

I can quite literally install the advance key, cam, cylinder, followers, and ported head in a matter about 4 hours. 4 hours, several hp increase at the rear wheel, and a good bump in RPM and torque. Done.

Honestly, if you want a 172 powered bike, just get a 172 powered bike.

When he first started up, I thought Devin's prices were too high... and his "slashed original prices" on the site still reflect that- but now, not so much. He's a good source for the parts ready to install.

As Dan said, dyno graphs are valid, and are lower than one could expect if you upgraded the carburetor and tuned it properly- although I don't know what style or size exhaust was ran on the test engine for those pulls. So there could be even more power to be had.

With the full kit and kaboodle, $500 is reasonable as heck. That ought to give you a roughly 22-23hp (flywheel) engine. A lot better than the stock levels for sure.

Depending on how the engine is tuned and set up from there with those parts, might be a bit more power in there somewhere too.

That's realistically about the best one can expect out of a CG250 without pushing the engine to or beyond limits that hold it in one piece. At least.. if you wanted to make it last more than just a few high speed runs anyways.

Not to also mention he now offers ecu tunes for the DLX, from improved stock all the way up to his stage 3 kit. 125 dollars.

That's quite a good deal for those who don't want to buy/mess around with HUD Hacker... just send in the ECU, get it back and plug it in.

WHY did you have to post this????? Actually, I am loving the Hawk in it's stock form and don't think I will need the extra power. Maybe after I put 10K miles on it I'll be up for this. I do this type of stuff with RC trucks, so why not? Plus, I love learning new stuff and it's been too long since I've tried engines. This little sucker will be great to learn on.

Honestly, it's more fun to do mods one at a time. You really get a feel for what each upgrade does and how the jetting needs change. In my time with the Hawk I ran it stock (with properly jetted carb) did the air box mod, noticed almost nothing. Did the exhaust next, great total increase in power, but really opens up the top rpm range the most. Next was my self ported head, and again, big increase in power across the board, and honestly if I were to build a bike for somebody, I would do those mods and one of the milder cam grinds and call it a day.

I did see a small gain in power with the big bore, again across most of the rpm range, but especially down low and in the middle. Up top, not so much. If their head is better than mine, it wasn't enough for me to notice a whole heck of a lot in terms of power, but there was a little more there, but that is down to small things like the valves being back cut. Idle and rideability are excellent, even with the 292 cam.

I agree with all of that.

Only "mod/upgrade" where I wasn't sure if it did anything at all, was the 4 degree timing advance. I'm sure it contributed something somewhere somehow, but I didn't notice.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/115527150035?

pretty close to the discount $499 for the moto cult kit wouldn't you say.

Tinkering is still tinkering...but for the money I think I'd go a whole new engine.

There is pretty good chance the wiring will be plug to plug, if not shouldn't be hard to snip and crimp a solution.

The 5 speed 172fmm-3 non balanced engine is a bit cheaper but should be a direct bolt in swap for all CG/CB frame types.

My XL185 frame took a cg250 and a cb250 no issue with lower mounts...

on paper a standard cg250 is 10kw/14nm. the 172fmm-5 claims 14kw/18nm. So I would say there is a difference in power and torque.

Yeah, so $550 (shipped) for a 5 speed OHC non-balanced engine with a 3 phase stator that requires a new reg/rec and a new CDI as well. Does not directly bolt up and requires some fab work. Rated 19hp at the crank. which would be about 17-ish hp at the rear wheel. Unknown additional costs for wiring changes, CDI, etc.

$500 for a Motocult kit for a CG250. Doesn't need any fab work. Doesn't need any wiring or parts changes of any kind. Engine is already bolted in. Takes just a few hours to install taking your time with a cold beer in your hand, makes a proven 20+hp at the rear wheel.

Plus, you are trying to say "on paper" the STOCK CG already on our bikes makes less power (11.5kw tyvm) than the stock 172 engine when this entire thread is about installing an upgrade on a CG engine vs. Swapping the 172 engine in... Entirely counter to this entire thread, which is about an upgrade to a CG engine and your proposal is to swap the engine instead of upgrading it. Making that entire argument moot.

It's not cheaper. Not the same. Not even comparable. The cheapest engine option literally gives you nothing over the CG. Unbalanced and a 5 speed. All you get is OHC - wooptie doo

If I were going to go through all the work to put a different engine in I would at least get the 6 speed, and that costs even more, still down on power over the cheaper upgrade to the CG, and still much much more work.

Thus, we come full circle to - if I were going to go for a ZS172 engine I would simply get a bike that already comes with it.

tinkering is tinkering...

If I was going to buy a $499 moto cult kit for a cg250 base hawk...

I would have just bought a bike that already came with a 6 speed counterbalanced engine...

It's a matter of perspective and personal preference Dan.

I doesn't bother me what other people do with their money or time...

Ive thrown on open wallet at the cg250, My experiments didn't pay off but I did learn from my mistakes.

And the ZS172FMM engines are nice. It has the OHC head. I have the 5 speed, used to own the 6 speed (counterblanced). You can buy it with a complete motorcycle with adjustable suspension for under $2000 (Templar). I agree, just buy the bike. THEN tinker! :tup:

No, it's not a matter of personal preference in this case. This entire thread is about a person that already has a Hawk and now is considering bumping the performance of it. They already bought a bike.

This is about you moving the goal posts when an argument is defeated. Perspective and preference has nothing to do with my points being factual and completely valid.

This is a case of a $500 motocult kit is the cheapest way to get the power they are after.

It's cheaper than swapping the engine to something that gains them nothing more than an OHC engine with less power than the motocult kit would provide them on their CG engine.

Cheaper aside, it's also WAY less work to simply install the motocult package than it would be to swap the engine.

All the same arguments that I made previously, all of them still entirely relevant and true.

I don't know, maybe I missed where the OP asked about Swapping in an engine? Here is the first post for a refresher.

This thread had nothing to do with engine swaps. No matter how great the 172 engine is, it had to do with Motocult and if they were the real deal, which that question was answered.

Anyway, argue amongst yourselves at this point. I'm beyond this silliness.

If I'm going to swap engines on a measly Hawk frame... I'm tossing in the engine from my pregen Ninja 250. It's been done before..

38 ish hp, parallel twin smoothness, 6 gears, 14,000rpm redline, Kawasaki reliability...

...and snap a frame weld...

Then you repair and re-weld it.

Or... or... just hear me out here...

Since you'd have the entire thing basically stripped to a bare frame anyhow, how about going through each of the frame weld points and inspecting them, rewelding as needed, and adding bracing where identified weak points exist.

Just because you have 40hp in a bike frame doesn't mean all 40 horsies are being applied at any given time either.

Hell, even on a stock bike, unless you're going WOT up to 8000rpm on every ride, you're not even using all 15-16hp there either.

Anyone capable of stuffing an EX250f engine into a cheap XR clone frame is certainly capable of reinforcing and ensuring the frame is able to handle it.

I honestly wouldn't worry about the frame.

The swing arm and it's mount point are, in my opinion, the weakest part of the Hawk.

The last 2 bikes, that I have bought have both been used, but each with almost no miles CG type Chinese Dual Sports, and I paid $1,900 total for both. $1,300 for a titled 2021, TBR7D ( was just a few months old at the time, showings 425 on the odometer,and had 42/17 sprockets, and rejetted carb), and $600 for a 2016 Hawk, that I bought last December, and it was showing around 100 on the odometer, if I remember right, it had sat in a storage container for years, and had only been used on the people's property, but it already had a VM26, and folding shifter on it. The front tire was pretty much flat, but it's not given me any trouble since I pumped it up. I put fresh gas in it, after getting home with it, and it wasn't too hard to kick start, but the clutch would not release. I got the clutch releasing within minutes by pulling the lever, with the bike in gear giving the bike hard sharp pushes forward, almost like rocking a car back, and forth to get it going in the snow. I have rode the bike enough to confidently say that my clutch is fine. That being said, I don't think I would buy another CG type new, because of some of the newer bikes having the 6 speed, OHC , BUT, I can honestly say that buying a used CG bike, and then going with the MotoCult total package, could make sense, especially, if you're content to stick with the CG bikes. I don't know if the Chinese OHC bikes are more dependable, and I honestly don't need a 6th gear in mine. I recently ported my head, and advanced ignition timing 4 degree, and instead a CSC head gasket on my TBR7, and picked up some more power, and that's probably about all the Nibbi PE28 can flow. I waited so long to do it, because I was already satisfied with the bike with just exhaust, and pod filter. I will probably port, and polish the Hawk head, and even though I only ordered 1 head gasket from CSC, I got 2, but I really enjoy my Hawk, now, with just cat , and baffle delete, and pod filter.

I absolutely agree. If I were buying a bike today, I would get a Templar with the 6 speed trans or spend the extra for the.KPX 250. Hands down, not a single argument from me.

That said. A stage 3 motocult equipped CG250 makes more power to the rear tire than the 172 engine makes at the crank.

Spot on Dan. I've watched with anticipation the Zongshen 172FMM 6 speed engine install on our Hawk250 Facebook page. Frankly, I'm not impressed. From what I've read, stock with the 172 is 19HP at the crank. With upgrades, as you've noted and has been proven by MotoCult, we can at least get our CG250s up to 20HP at the rear wheel. Thus, the conversion just isn't worth it to me...but that's me. I'd rather just buy a Templar X outright.

Same here... it's a fun project for the guy doing it, I'm sure.. but not what I'd do either. I don't think the effort will be worth the reward.

Is there any difference in the quality, or strength of the bottom end of the Chinese 229cc CG motors, and the OHC motors that a lot of the newer Chinese bikes are using?

Being Chinese copy engines, probably about the same overall.

The main limiting factor for the cg goes back to it being a pushrod engine woth a single lobe cam. It will never rev as high as an OHC engine, but it makes up for it with better low rpm power.

I bought the MotCult head/base gasket set. I can not find any videos on these specific gaskets and whether or not you need to use the oil seal o-ring? I did find a video on the CSC head gasket for the TT250. He gives a shout out to MegaDan for the advice to not use the o-ring. Wondering if the same applies to the MotoCult gasket?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQ-gzDU7VLo

For what it's worth, my 2024 CSC TT250 didn't have an o-ring, nor did one go in when I installed the Motocult stage 3 kit and gaskets. No leaks here and I'm a happy camper with the performance, particularly after enlarging the stock exhaust tailpipe and adding a Nibbi PE28FL.

How many miles since you did the stage 3? Can you hit 70 mph with ease, now? Also, very interested in that "custom-made cable controlled choke". How you do that?

I am editing this, because I just looked on AliExpress, and they sell all the items that you should need to convert to a cable type" choke ". Just search cable choke.
I recently did a warming up of my motor, about 700 miles ago, and I was hoping to get a steel gasket with the 70mm kit( 250cc), but it came with one similar to the stock one. I still didn't use the rubber O Ring, because with the larger bore, the ORing was over lapping the steel ring part of the gasket. My motor has a completely different attitude now, and will hit top speed faster, and seems" happier " to run at higher rpm, more importantly to me, it holds the RPMs better at higher RPM, like on long hills. The kit I used evidently is supposed to raise compression a little, possibly because the piston has way smaller valve reliefs on it, but I know the all steel gasket would give me more, but I likely won't change to it unless this one gives me trouble. I really don't know how much power, not having the thinner gasket is costing me, but I had enough after doing the motor that it allowed me to go with higher gearing, and still have more road power than I had before. My Hawk now has the same amount of range that I utilize with my KPX. I have never had my Hawk on the interstate, but have had my KPX on the interstate once and for just a short stretch between the Fairplain/ Ripley exit, and the Ripley exit, which is all 70mph, but is hilly, and neither the KPX, or me cared for it one little bit. I noticed that a lot of the cheap carbs on AliExpress with the enrichment valve style of " choke" come with your choice of cable, or pull knob configuration, and many of these carbs are just about like the Nibbi. I figure that if it was worth the price of a cheap carb to you, then you could likely just pull your enrichment/ choke off your Nibbi, and switch it.

I've got a little over 300 miles since I installed the stage 3 kit. 70 mph on GPS is right about what it's capable of on level ground, or just a touch more. I wouldn't say it gets there "with ease" as it takes a bit from 60+ to gain additional speed. I also wouldn't want to cruise at 70 with my current gearing as it's fairly "buzzy" above 60. It would be better if I geared it up some by dropping a few teeth on the rear sprocket for that kind of riding. I won't be doing that anytime soon though, as the stock 17/50 gearing seems just about an ideal compromise for the combination of riding I intend to do with this bike. I don't intend to do much in the way of any freeway riding unless it's just a short section. I have ridden it on the freeway at 65-ish and it's buzzing pretty good at around 7k on the tach. It doesn't have any real trouble doing it and I climbed a fairly decent little grade on I-80 between Auburn and Applegate CA and was able to maintain 65, or just over. That was all it had though. There wasn't much in the way of any reserve power on that grade at highway speed.

I also noticed at the freeway exit stop sign that I had noticeably more clutch freeplay which is an indication the oil had gotten pretty warm. The clutch feel went right back to normal after just a couple miles of slower cruising on secondary roads. I've since installed an oil cooler to help with that.

I may even go a little lower on the gearing to improve the low-speed trail manners. Once we get some good trail riding conditions I'll see how it does. I've got a 16 tooth countershaft sprocket I can install if I feel it will be better for me. Once the stock chain and sprockets require replacement, I'll be switching to a 520 chain and select my gearing based on my impressions up to that point.

As for the cable choke mod, I wrote up a fairly detailed thread on it: https://chinariders.net/showthread.php?t=33946

Best of luck in your endeavors! :)

The choke kit I got had a plunger that did not work. I detailed my experience in the thread that I linked in my post above. Your experience may vary. Just a heads-up to anyone that wants to do this.

Thanks for "learning the hard way" and sharing your experience so we don't have to go thru it. Very decent of you, and we can do with some more decency right about now.


This is me trying to do the decent thing: GET THE HELL OUTTA CALIFORNIA WHILE YOU STILL CAN!!

I think the power expectations need to be kept realistic. Even if a stage 3 cg250 makes 20 hp to the tire, it's still only 20hp.

For sure! The bulk of the improvement of the bike’s performance that I’ve experienced has been in the mid-range pull of the bike. It has a little more top speed, but not a lot. Where it really feels a lot better is accelerating out of corners and being able to maintain speed on a grade. And that’s without any noticeable loss of power right off the bottom end.

A person should definitely keep their expectations realistic. If you’re after more top end power, a different and more aggressive cam profile would be in order. Even then, it’s a pushrod 250 (or 229 if it’s still got the stock cylinder) with only two valves. it’s got its practical limits.

Thank you! Realistically though, most of the stuff I’ve done has been based on stuff I’ve found already done on this site. A couple other things are just stuff that I took a little bit different direction on due to my own preferences.

As for getting out of CommieFornia, I’d already be gone if I didn’t have a job that I enjoy and that also has a great pension. Lucky for me, the area where I live is among the most conservative areas in the state. Northern California is a whole different animal than the far southern and coastal areas. It’s not anything near what it once was though.

I swear I read on MotoCult's site a while back that with the stage 3 kit the bike would get past the 7000 rpm range and closer to 10,000. It still says you get a 48% increase in power.


Oh well. I have noticed that it's snappier with the new pipe, even feels like it wants to wheelie, but still dogs out at the higher rpm's.

I have went the cheaper way, and did not buy from Motocult, but I have the long duration cam, timing advance key, and a home ported head, along with a 250cc jug, and piston (70mm). I also have the roller followers, and my definitely has more power at higher RPM than it did. I don't think 10,000 rpm would be possible, and if it were, it's power would have probably dropped off, but my bike will pull, and still be making good powered past 8,000. I don't like to run it past 8,000, but I have let it get a little past it a few times, in the lower gears , mainly by accident. Some say that it's not really stressing these motors to run such high RPM , but I don't like to. Warming up the CG motor has kinda fallen out of favor, because a lot are just switching to the OHC, 6 speed, but if I compare my Hawk to my KPX, there is no real difference in range if the bikes, and I am sure the Hawk will out accelerate the KPX, and both bikes run , and run unstressed , on the fast main roads. The only use my Hawk could possibly have for a 6th gear, would be in the case of wanting it to be able to crawl through harsh rocky terrain, and therefore using lower sprocket ratios.

I'm right there with you. A six-speed would be nice, and I'd drop in a 6-speed mainshaft, countershaft, and shift drum if a set that fits was available, but I don't absolutely need a six-speed. If I had one, I'd also take advantage of being able to run lower final gearing to have a creeper-low 1st gear.

I don't have a ported head because I'm not convinced there would be all that much to gain from it unless it was combined with a higher lift cam. Even then, the kind of higher RPM power that would potentially help isn't what I'm after.

Simply going to a bigger bore will to some extent improve the flow of even a stock head by unshrouding the edges of the valves closest to the cylinder wall. Additionally, after having gone through several of the posts here on head porting and seeing what the stock ports look like in other engines, I'm convinced that the stock ports in a CSC Zongshen head are noticeably better to begin with. I've also noticed a few other subtle differences in the CSC head. They include what appear to be iron inserts cast into the aluminum head for the threads that the rocker arm assembly bolts screw into. I don't have a different head to compare side by side, but I'm absolutely certain there are differences in the head on a CSC bike to those that I've seen posted up here from other brands.

If and when I have occasion to disassemble the head I'd certainly clean up any machining edges and put a thin back-cut above the sealing area on the valves, but I doubt that would yield any seat-of-pants difference in the way it runs with the current cam that I have.